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NOT RELEASABLE TO FOREIGN NATIONALS
ORCON
GRILL FLAME
PROGRAM
SESSION REPORT
CLASSIFIED BY: MSG, DAMI-ISH
051630Z JUL 78
REVIEW ON:
May 2000
GRILL, FLAME
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PLUIE
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SUMMARY ANALYSIS
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-25
1. (S) This report documents a remote viewing conducted in compliance
with a request from SOD, J3, OJCS, Pentagon, Washington, D.C. The purpose.
of the session was to provide information relevant to the hostage situation
in Iran.
2.
(S)
The remote viewer's impressions of the target are provided as raw
intelligence data, and, as such, have not been subjected to any intermediate
analysis, evaluation or collation. Interpretation and use of the information
provided is the responsibility of the requestor.
3. (S) The protocol used for this session is detailed in the document,
Grill Flame Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S), undated.
4. (S) Following is a transcript of the viewer's impressions during the
remote viewing session. At TAB A are drawings made by the remote viewer
reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB B is target cuing
information provided the remote viewer.
5. (S) The remote viewer was asked to locate KEVIN HERMENING and to
describe his surroundings. The viewer described a gym-like area, but was
unable to present a view of the entire building. However, he was able to
describe surrounding features which might be helpful in pinpointing the
location of HERMENING. The viewer stated that HERMENING and 4 other hostagest
were doing exercises. The viewer felt very strongly that a GREGORY PERSINGER
was one of the other hostages at this location. Three other hostages are
identified but the viewer did not feel very confident concerning their
identification
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TRANSCRIPT
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-25
TIME
#6.5:
This will be a remote viewing session for 28 May 1980;
on-target time is 0900 hours.
PAUSE
Okay #8.5 it's time to start today's session. Relax,
relax. For the past few minutes now you've been focusing
your attention on the photographs that I showed you.
I want you to relax and concentrate. Describe the area
where Kevin Hermening, Kevin Hermening is located.
Relax and concentrate on the area where Kevin Hermening
describe it to me.
PAUSE
+5.5
#8.5:
... I got him. . I don't know ...
.vas ..
seen all these
buildings ... and no Kevin.
. I got him.
I got Kevin and 4 other people in a big room. I think
it's ... I got gymnasium. High windows. Like clear story.
Very, very high windows. It's, it's, it's not like a
basketball court. It's like a weight lifting gym. Kevin
... is in front of the people facing the same direction
... they seem to be following his lead in calisthenics.
PAUSE
#6.5:
Okay. You're doing very well. You're doing very well.
I want you to focus your attention, focus your attention
on those other individuals that are with Kevin and describe
them to me.
+09
#8.5:
I think I see ..... early twenties ... . on the left ..... early
twenties ..... brown hair ... weighs about 100 ..... 160 ..
roundish face. Good shape. Slim, slim guy behind him.
Dark hair .. Wiry, tough, not, not, not muscular. A long
face ..... and another guy there ..... I don't know ..... 20 to
23. .. lighter hair, well, well-groomed, muscular. Kind of
likes himself, I think. Very vain. Older guy on the right.
I don't know why, but I just .... oh, hell. It seems I
...
.warrant officer comes to mind. Early 30s I think or
stocky .... 5 ..... 5-9, brown, brown hair. Normally has,
normally has a heavy beard. Last guy has some problem
with his leg or foot. I had the feeling it was his right.
#6.5:
Okay. You've done very well. You've done very well #8.5.
Now before you move on I want you to go by these individuals
again, and study them very closely. Study their face very
closely so that later on when we look at some pictures we
will be able to find them. You don't have to tell me
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anything. Just look at them. Study them very closely
and when you think that you could identify them later
let me know and we'll move on. Okay.
#8.5:
I think I got the older guy.
#6.5:
Okay. Just take your time and focus on them.
#8.5:
Younger guy. I don't know if I saw all of them.
One guy appears very athletic. Skinny guy looks very
unique ... a long face. Little guy on the left is kind of
non-descript. They keep touching their toes.
#6.5:
Okay. You study their face. You study their faces so
you can identify them later.
+15
#8.5:
Something very strong about, about breads. I don't
understand it. Slice ..... big loaf of bread with the
end cut off keeps appearing out of nowhere. I don't know
why.
#6.5:
#8.5:
Okay. Don't worry about it.
It's like an intrusion. Reminds meof an executive
gymnasium ... exercise room.
..
..
. I sense fruit trees
nearby. Appears, appears to be no windows in the walls of
the room, but a raised portion over the center of the
room has windows in it that lights up the room. Wait a
minute.
PAUSE
+18:45
I sense some other people. Not in this room, but not
too far away. Kind of foul mood, bored, lounging on
cots. Small bed. I see, I see 5 or 6 of them. I don't
see them. I'm just aware. They were there behind.
down the hall in some other room .... spaces somewhere.
#6.5:
Okay. Now #8.5 I want you to relax. Clear your mind of
what we have been doing here. Relax now. I want you to
change your perspective I want you to go outside of this
building. Go up in the air 1500 feet and look down on
this building where Kevin and the others are located on
1500 feet and look down on this building where Kevin and
the others are located and describe the area to me with
the thought of how we can locate this place. Relax and
concentrate on that. How can we locate this place where
Kevin and the others are located.
PAUSE
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+23:30 #8.5:
I was distracted. I saw people. Looked like .... on the
ground. . .. looked like maybe ...... I saw things that .....
symbolic of ... nautical. The room Kevin was in appears
to be a wing of building. I can't put it together, but
I see a roof .. reminds me of a giant umbrella ... round
and many pie shape segments ..... very shallow slope.
There's trees here. In the front, in front of one of the
buildings is a pattern, I can best describe as shaped
something like a maple leaf. Must be 40, 50 feet across.
I can't tell whether it's a real low wall shaped like the
contour of maple leaf .... it's a real low trimmed hedge ...
I don't feel the building that Kevin is in has recognizable
feature nearby ... adjacent building ... image of building is
flickering nebulously. Appears to be this building with
maple leaf ... looks like some kind of tile roof ... shallow
slope ... masonry.
#6.5:
Okay. Very good. Is there anything else? Tell me about
anything else in the surrounding area that catches your
attention that would help us focus on the building that
Kevin is in.
#8.5:
+27
A couple of hundred yards away, in front of the building
is a little linear patch of green. Guess it's a row of
shrubs or trees. I feel uncomfortable about the greenery
because logic tells me water is very important. I still
see alot of green here. I don't know what it's worth,
but I saw something that looked like small striped melons
nearby ...... might isolated region ....... 0
Outside of this,
outside of this complex doesn't seem to be alot of
/buildings like you would expect in a city. I had the
feeling that ...... the place might have been something
like a quasi-military school.
+30
#6.5:
Okay #8.5, very good, very good. I have no further
questions at this time. Do you have anything you'd like
to add?
#8.5:
I don't think so.
#6.5:
Okay. Very good. Why don't you relax then for a few
minutes, stretch and then we'll do some drawings, okay.
Relax and unwind a bit. I'll put the tape recorder on
hold. Okay. I have this back on #8.5, why don't we go
ahead with your drawings.
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#8.5:
I'm having trouble drawing this, but there was a ...
the walls were blank, and there was a raised portion
near the center with the windows in that. Put a little
uh ..... Kevin was right along in here ... uh ... doing ...
he was doing some kind of swing thing with his hands ...
touching opposite toes, and was a person in here, and
one there, one there, and one over here. The blond guy
was here, skinny, tall. This guy was older. Most of the
stuff they was doing was ... uh ... touching the toes, and
swinging their hands and all bent over. Not a very good
drawing ..... and there was windows on the opposite side
here just like that wall.
#6.5:
Okay.
#8.5:
Somewhere off in that direction, by the way, this, this
wall here is exposed to outside. The left wall is
exposed to the outside. The wall to the right was attached
to the building, and back through there, somewhere, were
some more people laying on cots.
#6.5:
Okay.
#8.5:
God. Is there anything else?
#6.5:
Well. Why don't you tell me about this, this room
you described it as a wing.
#8.5:
Yeah. It was a wing to a larger portion of the building,
and I felt that the wings did not come ..... all the wings
didn't come off at right angle. I felt there was a
different angle of 90 degrees there. I couldn't put it
all together.
#6.5:
Okay. Why don't you see what you can do.
#8.5:
Uh .... it was flicker imagery. I'm sorry. It would
come and go ... I didn't know where I had a hold of. this
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other building .... had the maple leaf in front of it or
it was part of the same one ... uh ... or just what.
I
wasn't comfortable how, how this attached. Except, I
did feel that the angle was not a 90 degrees. I
felt there were other wings that also were not 90 degrees.
#6.5:
What about this?
#8.5:
Part of the same complex of this big building that had
the maple leaf thing in front of it.
#6.5:
Okay. Why don't you draw that?
#8.5:
And, let's see ..... overlooking the top ..... turned around
in my head.
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#8.5:
Thing looks familiar. This, some kind of shape like
this was in front of the building.
#6.5:
When you say in front of the building do you mean the
building that Kevin's in or
#8.5:
No, no. I was looking for features that were unique.
If you've got 50 shoe boxes ... same color' in a room, it's
pretty hard to ..... So, I looked around for things that
were unique, and right nearby was this building that ..
..
for some reason, appeared to have, you know, like a
main office building of the headquarters, or.
...
I had a feeling there would normally be a, you might
expect to see a flag pole in this area in front. I did
not see one. I felt it was the sort of thing that you
might, might see there. This appeared to be a hedge.
or a wall or something.
#6.5:
Sure. But, it gave off the pattern of a maple leaf.
#8.5:
Well, looking down over the top of the roof, it sort of
reminded me of it. All the points ..
I didn't get the feel for the number of windows or
anything. I just felt it was 2-stories.
The attached
to other buildings, somehow. It was not this one building
along. There were other wings and things jetting off in
other directions. But, I can't quite, can't quite get it
all together. There was alot of greenery outside. Fruit
trees were near the building that Kevin was in across in
this direction ... the way he's facing .... through that wall
was some fruit trees. I saw some melons in the vicinity.
Oh, there was 2-300 yards in front of this building was
a line of trees or shrubs ... green.
#6.5:
That was that linear pattern that you described earlier.
Okay.
#8.5:
Yeah. I felt I
was quite concerned about everything
because, I don't know. I was worried about the use of
water .. It occurred to me, you know, I really didn't care
about water, but still there was uneasy feeling about it.
I don't know what to make of it.
#6.5:
Okay. This roof like thing that you described earlier,
as a giant umbrella.
#8.5:
Oh, yeah, yeah. This was part of the complex ... real
close, like ... . uh ... This is the shape of the roof, and
it definitely had .... you can see these seams ... these
pie shape patterns.
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#6.5:
Ahh.
Now, is this just another building nearby or ....
#8.5:
Uh ... I was looking down on top of it, and it looked like
it was a portion of a complex. Like you'd have.
....
maybe, you know, there was different buildings around, and
this thing was just a big thing that was in the.
That's not the exact shape the way the rectangle is put
together. There was a conglomerate of geometric patterns
and this big circle overlapped it. It stood higher.
#6.5:
You know what itse relationship was to this building with
the maple leaf pattern?
#8.5:
It was about 150 feet away in the back, back over in this
direction here.
#6.5:
What we have then he put an X on drawing number 2.
#8.5:
Back over in that direction somewhere.
#6.5:
Okay. So, someplace nearby in this building where you
sense that Kevin was there will be two other buildings.
One that has some type of maple leaf pattern in front of
it, and, oh, 100 yards or so away will be another building
that has this umbrella shape to its roof, huh. That's
pretty good. Okay. Now, you said that you felt like
this was an isolated region.
#8.5:
I don't remember saying that, but the feeling was ... I
looked around to see, you know, if I'm on the east side
of town, the left side of town; I didn't see any town.
#6.5:
Ahhh.
#8.5:
I had the feeling it might have been a valley or something.
#6.5:
Okay. Can you tell me what.
#8.5:
It obviously had water with the greenery which surprised
me.
#6.5:
Okay. Can you tell me a little more why you felt that
it was like a quasi-military area.
#8.5:
Oh, when I first moved up in elevation, I looked around
to try and find something that ... I always look for
something that's unique ... If I can say, hey, there's the
Empire State building, okay, I know where I am.
I was
looking all around, and I saw people in white and I saw
masts or something that reminded me of ships. Nautical ..
And I looked for water immediately. I didn't see any.
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#8.5:
Uh ... I thought it might have been ... military ... school
of some kind. Not necessarily, not necessarily
government sponsored. But, it had the flavor, a
nautical flavor and yet I saw no water. The main building
there had the kind of dignity and spit and polish that
you might expect to the military academy or school.
#6.5:
Uh ... You mentioned something, and I don't know if it was
just something that you had to dump or whether maybe it
was something that we can reflect on that might be important.
And, this was this ..... sense of bread or shape of bread or
do you think that was just something that.
#8.5:
Uh ... I don't know. It was so strong, I just, I thought,
gee, you know, here comes imagery that means nothing.
And, it hung in so long, I dumped it. I have no idea.
#6.5:
Nothing that ties in with that, but I just wanted to make
sure.
#8.5:
It looked like a big, round European type loaf that had
about one-third of the end cut off. Not long loafs like
we have, but big, fat ... like a big batch of dough just
dumped on something flat and baked.
#6.5:
Okay. I'm sure you're just hungry.
#8.5:
Probably, probably.
#6.5:
What I would like to do now is put the tape in the pause
mode, and for us to look at some photographs that we have
and see if we can't select these 4 people that I asked you
to concentrate ... and referring to your drawing number 1,
where you had a round face individual, a tall individual,
someone who was blond, and an older gentleman that were
doing exercises with Kevin. We've gone through the
photos and, let's take them one at a time ... now, out of
all the photos we've showed you, you felt the blond
individual resembled closely this individual right here.
#8.5:
Yes. The hair
is a little longer and the individual
I saw was rather well-built, muscular. Not like a weight
lifter, but he was well-built, broad shouldered.
#6.5:
You feel very confident?
#8.5:
This, this guy looks very much like him.
#6.5:
Okay. The individual that is being discussed is
Gregory Persinger, P-e-r-s-i-n-g-e-r. Okay very good.
Thank you. Now the other one ... the tall one ... tall,
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skinny one, you have picked out ... someone whose been
identified as Robert Engleman, E-n-g-1-e-m-a-n. Now,
you want to tell me about.
#8.5:
I picked this guy because he was the only one that .:
appeared very thin and of the right age group. Uh ...
the individual I saw must have been 6-2 or 3, very
thin. I don't know if this guy is tall. But, the face
would fit in that group.
#6.5:
Sure. How confident do you feel that this one as being
Engleman as compared to the first one which was Persinger
which you felt pretty good about.
#8.5:
Oh, No comparison. I just picked this because of that
type, but does not look like the individual.
#6.5:
Okay. Fine. I want to make sure. All right. So, what
we're saying is Persinger you probably feel pretty confident
as one of the individuals.
#8.5:
Very confident.
#6.5:
But, Engleman, all you're saying is that someone that
appears to look like him, but not necessarily Engleman.
#8.5:
That's right.
#6.5:
All right. Now, the third one that we want to talk about
is the individual that you described as having a round
face. Now, you identified two people that might be that
category. One is a Joseph Subic, S-u-b-i-c, and the other
one is a Steven Kirtley, K-i-r-t-l-e-y.
Do you want to
tell me a little bit more?
#8.5:
Well, after looking at the picture of a TV screen that's
below the one of, you know his name,
#6.5:
Kirtley.
#8.5:
Kirtley, uh ... I feel that is not the round face that I
saw. The front view above looks about the same, but I
would go for Subic. Built more like this and the same
type of face. The hair up here is a little lighter than
I saw it in the photo ... and the hair was longer and darker.
#6.5:
No glasses. No glasses.
#8.5:
At a gynasium you wouldn't expect them.
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#6.5:
Sure. Okay. Now the older gentleman ... older gentleman ...
the older individual ... we could not find anyone that you
felt resembled that individual.
#8.5:
That individual's hair was brown, longer than any that
I'd seen. Uh. .. he could have fit the older gentleman
with the white side-walls except I thought the photo
looked about 5 years too old. That was about it.
#6.5:
Do you have anything else that you want to add?
#8.5:
I can't think of anything except this blond individual
here. Feel very, very good.
#6.5:
Okay. Your impressions ... you feel very good. All right.
I thank you very much.
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TAB
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ROUND
X
DEDEA
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LLL
777
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TAB
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TARGET CUING INFORMATION
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION CD-25
1. (S) The remote viewer has been exposed to open source news media
information as well as classified overhead imagery and numerous photographs
of hostage personnel. He knew he would be working against the hostage
situation in Iran.
2.
(S) At the time of the session the remote viewer was shown the attached
photographs and was asked to find KEVIN HERMENLING. He was asked to identify
HERMENING's location, describe his physical and mental condition, and to
identify any other hostage personnel at this same location.
3. (S) The remote viewer has been briefed on the current status (as of
27 May 1980) of the hostage situation, and told that the whereabouts of the
hostages was not known.
1
SEGRET
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SGFOIA3
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