CIA-RDP96-00788R000100130001-7

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SECRET
ORCON/NOFORN
INSCOM
GRILL FLAME
PROJECT
SESSION REPORT
CLASSIFIED BY: Director, DIA
REVIEW ON: 1 Nov 99
EXTENDED BY: Director, DIA
REASON :
2-301-C (3) (6)
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GRILL FLAME
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TRANSCRIPT
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION C 75
#66
This will be a remote viewing session (edited for
security) .
PAUSE
It's time now to focus your attention on the large
building that you've told us about before located
in the vicinity of:
SG1A
PAUSE
This is the target for today. Focus your attention
now at the present time on the target and describe
it to me.
PAUSE
+06
#10.5
I got familiar imagery. I was going to say .....
mumbling.
.... above the end of ....... peak building
it seemed to be smaller and across the way there
was ..... was .... a ... was a familiar east wall with
tunnel. Close in tunnel.
#66
OK.
Relax and concentrate. Go above this area,
go above this area that you perceive is the east
100 feet in the air, look down on this area and
describe it to me.
PAUSE
+10
#10.5
Uh ..... uh .. looking down .. uh .. building seems to have
uh ... a big center line ... looks smaller than the other one.
Center line seems to run perpendicular to the other
one. Uh ... feel .. uh ...... on the .... uh .. some funny
long thing sticking out of the bottom corner ... of
the main building. I feel banks .... I feel as though
I'm sort of in between banks. I'm standing on. . a.
.on south side of the building. Uh .. a big one.
.
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66
Alright.
#10.5
Going back up the upper right of my.
. another
side of that small building .... have a .... right of
that small building ....
. I have a feeling there's
a rush in the water.
It seems to be a bolder dam
up there .. water running towards me. It seems to be
out ..... I don't get the feeling it's massive.
Get the feeling more like it's just a lock.
#66
OK. I'd like you to focus your attention now back
on the large building. Take your perspectives
standing on top of the small building, on top of
the small building you just described and look at
the large building. Stand on top of the small
building and look at the large building and describe
what you see.
#10.5
It's massive.
#66
Look down towards the ground and describe.
Look
down towards the ground.
PAUSE
#10.5
Looking down towards the ground, between the two
structures.
.I don't really
..
.I don't see anything
#66
What do you see?
PAUSE
+15
#10.5
I have feeling of .. a .. that on the right, on the
ground is connecting thing between the corners
of these two buildings that face each other.
I still
feel that that is there. I'm on the ground looking
back at what I think is the small building. And I
have a ..... have a large ..... I'm on hard ground ... uh ..
I have a large ..... uh .... on the face of the building
there seems to be exceptionally large rectangle,
vertical rectangle like the .. a .. large door ... uh ..
#66
Tell me more about the connecting thing.
PAUSE
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#10.5
It appears to be a ... about 20 feet high.
It
appears to be off the ground a little bit.
(Mumbling ... sides and then I went down ... like
looking under it or ... like it was up off the
ground about 2 feet.
#66
Yes.
Alright.
Move in underneath it now. Tell
me about the inside of it.
PAUSE
#10.5
I think it is over and on the bottom and it's just
a cover ... more for ... whatever observation in
structure. I have the feeling that it's open off
the ground, and it's almost like a little railroad
track in there. It looks like maybe ... uh ... just
a single track. I have the feeling of rails ... of
two ... of two tracks parallel on the ground.
#66
Tell me where they go.
#10.5
They go into the ..... straight line. .... they go ...
.. uh ... into the little building.
#66
Follow them into the little building.
Describe as
you go.
+20
#10.5
About where ... uh ... where it enters the building
there ... let me see ... (mumbling) ... a big ... a big
area ... uh ... tracks ... uh ... seemed to ... uh ... seems
to split down into a couple.
#66
Alright.
#10.5
OK.
#66
Stand observing the tracks.
Stand observing the
tracks and see in your mind, see in your mind what
is moved along these tracks.
Describe it to me.
#10.5
I have a ... I had a thing that looks like a miniature
railroad flat bed car.
3
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SEGRET
#66
What is on this ...
#10.5
On this thing is something rounded and long.
It's
carried long-wise laying on it ... it has like two
different ... uh ... it looks ... it is a ... it's round
... it's got like three different layers. I feel. .. uh ...
coiling ... coiled inside ... uh ... a center core. Almost
like a turbine of some kind that is, maybe, on the
track, on the dollie, is a ... stands ... half again man's
height. It's got a bunk on ... it's funny shape.
It's
hard to describe it. It has something long and
skinny sticking out at one end.
But ... and this big
round thing and it's got a round knob on the other
end of it.
#66
Which direction do these move on the tracks, between
the buildings. Which directions do these things move?
#10.5
I feel that they move from here to the other place.
I feel it moving out the way I came in. This is the
way I perce ... I felt that it was coming from the
forked end to the track and it was linked on to this
main thing and then it went ... was going passed me.
#66
OK.
And it is going towards
.
#10.5
.... the big building.
#66
OK.
I'd like you to leave the small building now
following down the tracks and describe where these
tracks lead.
PAUSE
+25
#66
Where are you now.
#10.5
Up half-way. I'm taking it slow.
PAUSE
#66
Are you under the cover?
#10.5
Yeah.
#66
What's the purpose of this cover?
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#10.5
It .... it's just sheet metal ... wood. Weather shield
or something.
Not structural. Nothing hangs in the
roof. It wouldn't support any internal weight. It's
just a shield.
I want to say it. . . a ... not even
sheet metal. I want to say it's wood. That's all,
just wood lapping. I see ... uh ... guys coming down
with big brooms. They just sweep the dust and
the dirt and snow, if there's snow ... keep it out
from under this thing so they can get their stuff
through.
#66
Alright. Move now on down the tracks.
#10.5
Seems to be a ... (mumbling) ... stairwell outside the
building, where I am. I can just sort of see it
as I go by. I'm going into the building now.
#66
That's fine. Tell me about it.
PAUSE
#10.5
I have a ..
..
....
. pause
#66
Go on.
#10.5
I feel like I got pulled off of it ... by something.
Just a minute ... sigh ... I know I've been someplace.
I don't see anything in there. I have the feeling
there's stuff stacked all along the wall, on the
sides of me as I go by.
Big mass of parts of things
sitting on pallets of some kind ... stands of some kind
lined up ... like a overhead ... uh ... heavy jacks,
pullies, jack stands, dollies overhead. I see some
of these round things that I'm following. And they
seem to be on my left. Just goes on ... I'm going
along with it. On the right seems ... uh ... more pallets
of things. Big parts. They're hard to see what they
... they're so big.
+31
#66
Follow the tracks.
#10.5
I think I got over in a ditch ... over on one side
there, I think I see curved things. I'm going on.
PAUSE
This is weird. I'm moving along and a ... slowly drifting
down these tracks, taking in the sights, and, on
my left I had this feeling there was some funny tall
glassed-in booth, almost like a control tower. There
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SEGRET
is some sort of a rounded glass face on it. And
the old track just went right on by it. It was
like up on a pedestal. I had this feeling when
I got just about past that the track ended abruptly,
at a deep edge. Like a deep pit. Just a drop off.
But, this control tower, about 25 feet high, sat up
on the edge of this ... a ... pit, and could look both
at, where I was, and could look over the edge down
into this big pit, at the same time, and that he, like
for ... like ... the, that was like a control area ... like
a monitor, everything that was going on ... like
monitored some part of what was going on. They could
see all over the place. They could lift things
and move things and direct things and.
#66
OK. Fine.
PAUSE
#10.5
Uh ... that's about ..... I have the feeling that I've
come into the building, like maybe 150-200 feet
along this track. Because I could look back down
the track and I can see what I came through as being
just a little square a light area ... what ... where
I came in.
#66
OK. Move up to the observation area that you've
described to me. Move up there yourself and look
down at the pit.
PAUSE
#10.5
It's going to take some doing because I love pretty
lights.
+35
#66
Keep your eyes down as you move up.
PAUSE
#10.5
I am trying to get a view ... get it in a second.
What have we got here ...
.. OK
#66
Tell me about the pit.
#10.5
Oh. About the pit.
PAUSE
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PAUSE
#10.5
OK. I'm looking at it so.
.... a ... so big across
it.
....
#66
What's the shape of the pit?
#10.5
Rectangular .. simple shape ... seems to have a guard
rail on it to keep people from falling in. Doesn't
seem to be too extremely deep. Deep enough to hurt
you. Maybe 30 feet, 35 feet. It's hard to tell
'cause I'm even up higher than I was. Uh. . trying
to get the configuration of this thing here. Seems
it really ..... almost like a cavern like feeling.
#66
See the activity at the pit. See the activity at
the pit. Describe what goes on at the pit.
+40
#10.5
Alright. In this one I have.
. empty
then, maintaining emptyness, sweeping stuff like
that. Then. . uh. . activity there, maintenance
activity is occurring in and around a great girdle
.. uh. . uh .. that is in the bottom of the pit. Uh ...
it's a ... a frame a bed structure. Curves (mumbling)
line, semi-circles and ... like a carriage, OK. Then
I have a ... what do I have .. a ... I got this thing
... what yeah ... I got this image in the end of it
looking back in towards the control tower of a
. that ...... super structure nestled in the frame
.like a cross section, that's all. That was
like I was looking at somebody's schematic.
#66
What type of vessel?
#10.5
Configuration is a 4. I have feeling of a.
submarine as opposed to surface vessel. The image
I had was again no one of con ... and cigar shape
They just sort of came to me matter of factly, I
just, that was the one that fit in there. These
girdles are.
#66
Right now, at the present time, is there a vessel
in the pit?
#10.5
No. Not this
#66
Are there other pits?
7
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#10.5
That's what I was going to work on next. If there
are any others I will have to go look for 'em.
That was when you asked me, "What was going on in
the pit?" My first thing was ... this empty pit
was guys working in it, but with the girdle there
and everything ..... and when you asked me, "What was
done there?" then I sort of put together the
progression of what was done there. And when you
asked me again, I went back to the control tower
and I got an empty pit again.
#66
OK. I understand.
#10.5
But, I'd have to say. . at least to this place. . . it's
nothing going on right now, more maintenance and
clean up and fixing repairs on equipment and stuff.
Now. . . ..
.. my feeling is that ....
. this bay or pit
rectangular shape thing is perpendicular to the path
of the railroad track, or the little track that I
followed in.
It seems to me that this thing goes
from right to left as I stand to the end of that thing.
Now
#66
OK. At this time I'd like you to relax and concentrate
for a moment. Relax and concentrate on your image.
(turned tape over)
PAUSE
#66
And what is it you perceive?
+45
#10.5
I get a little bigger view ..... I get ..... ah .... I get
this feeling of some ... a ... nodes ... like a ... like a
turn table. . or railroad train, you know. They're
like rays emanating off of this and that those are
maybe the bays or the pits. I just had ... I was
trying to get across this place and looked back
where I was to get sort of a greater view and I had
the ... had the feeling of the pit, or whatever, empty
was closed off and dry ... uh ... in it but that like
radiating around were several more ... I don't know.
+50
I also had the same feeling that there was another
one just up the line that had a ... a vessel in it.
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#10.5
I don't know, I'm not getting too much here.
#66
OK. I'd like to move you to a different area.
Are you ready?
#10.5
Yes.
#66
I'd like you to reorient yourself outside the
east end of the building. Tell me when you're there.
PAUSE
#10.5
Alright.
#66
Describe what you see.
#10.5
I'm looking at the parallel between the two buildings
and in front of me is this covered area.
#66
Alright. Face the large building, please.
#10.5
Alright.
#66
Move up in the air, parallel with the roof.
#10.5
Alright.
#66
Move on to the roof.
#10.5
Alright.
#66
Move to the west end of the building.
#10.5
Alright.
#66
Standing on the edge of the building, look down over
the edge. Stay up on the top, look down over the edge
and describe what you see.
PAUSE
#10.5
I see right under me, I see water. Like a small
river, embankment; what else do I see?
9
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#66
Go on.
#10.5
Yeah.
I get the feeling there's a .. a .. shoot for
water.
It's a ... OK.
#66
Looking right down the edge of the building,
right straight down the edge of the building ...
What's right down at the bottom?
#10.5
What's right down at the bottom?
#66
Stand.
Stay up on the top of the building, now.
#10.5
I am.
PAUSE
#10.5
... right down the edge of the building.
. .
Well, I want to say I see a catwalk.
#66
That's fine.
#10.5
... or something that is below me ... uh ... catwalk
that goes ... at least over the middle part of the
building ... I don't think it goes all the way from
one end to end but inner section right under me
... catwalk on .. uh ..
#66
... and on ... moving away from the building, what's
on the other side of the catwalk?
Moving, out,
away from the building.
+55
#10.5
... Away from the building ... catwalk.
I got a feeling
of things that are. . uh .. what are they like upside down
"L"s. Upside down capitol "L"s. They seem to be like
.. something like that shape. Uh .. whatelse is it.
I got a feeling .. wait a minute ... yeah .. some sort of
metal work which is a rectangular ... that I ... it
appears to me it straddles where the water is.
It's
like a bigget, goes over this thing and. . uh ..
The first impression I had was like overhead lighting
... exterior light things sticking up out of the ground.
And ... uh ... seems to be almost a row of these that go
off away from the building. There's a row of regular
things somewhere and at the foot of them, I want to
say that there's a chain link fence that goes out
on either side too.
Sort of like to keep people
from getting in close.
10
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#66
OK. I'd like to change your perspective, now.
Center yourself on the top .. on the top of this
of the building. In the middle of the building
space. Move now at the same height. The height
of the building. Move now 300 feet west of the
building.
Move 300 feet out and away from the
building.
What is below you?
PAUSE
#10.5
Another ... below me ... oh man !... I feel that there's
a curve and there's a whole conglomerate.
A
slight curve or something .. only maybe 50 or 20 degrees.
But, I have the feeling that there's some sort of
control booth or little structure that almost ..
again, almost like a little air traffic control tower
or something.
. that sits on the inside of that
curve there.
#66
Looking back at the building from this perspective
describe this end of the building.
#10.5
A line of a ... my feeling is it's essentially white.
Except for a .. appeared to be right up and into the
roof line ... there appears to be at least one row of
windows, ventilator areas. Something up there seems
to go the full length of ..... there's a square tunnel
feeling when looking back up this thing .. what I
think is up it anyway.
PAUSE
I got the feeling ... uh ... OK. I got the feeling of
... something is not square ... if there is a portal in
the end of that building, the bottom of the legs of
the four door wider than the top of the legs ..
of the portal. I have the feeling of more like hanger
doors than the other doors that we've had here. I
feel like massive doors moving apart rather than going
up or down. And those doors ..... my feeling is that
those doors are augmented below them with another set
of gates or doors that would be inside this canal,
or whatever it is ... I seem to see them in there too,
which would allow them to service locks, and. . uh ...
but those are interesting. I got a different movement
with those. The movement I got with those is that
they turned inward instead of simply pulling apart,
like the upward doors. It's almost like a dutch door
set up.
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#66
OK.
Fine
PAUSE
#10.5
That's all I'm getting
....
#66
Alright. Fine. I want you to move now back around
#10.5
I'm getting tired.
#66
Alright. Fine.
#10.5
What do you want?
#66
I have one more question I'd like to ask you.
Move back on top of the building where you were
already. Back on top of the west end looking down
over the airfield.
Alright. Tell me when you can see clearly what's
down below. Tell me when you have a clear impression
where you are at
#10.5
(mumbling)
#66
Alright. Now perceiving yourself to be at the target
I want you to close your eyes at the target so that
you see nothing. As I talk to you your eyes are closed
at the target and you see nothing at all. When you
open your eyes again it will be January 1st, 1980.
+66
#66
Open your eyes now.
Tell me what you see.
PAUSE
#10.5
.... the first feeling I had was that water and I had
a feeling of a round cylindrical snout which is
coming out of the building beneath me.
And it was
coming out.
#66
OK.
#10.5
That's the first.
What else?
PAUSE
#66
Do you have anything you would like to add?
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#10.5
I'm working on it ..... . yeah ..... oh yeah.
Looking
around.
Not knowing what to look at, it's hard
to tell whether anything is different.
#66
I have no further questions.
#10.5
Well, I can't see. I can't discern ... uh.
anything that's going to be hurdle.
That's the
only thing that I got ...... that's the only thing
that I got. I didn't get any new feeling of
configuration or any new ... or any structural change ...
or ... or anything like that. That's the only thing
I can say.
Event for 1 January is the submarine
exits.
#66
You're pretty tired ... you'd like to work on this later.
I would like you now to move your arms, stretch.
#10.5
I'm moving .. all at once.
#66
When you're ready, let's sit up and draw.
#10.5
Felt like I had a body cramp.
#66
Would you like to take a little break before you
draw.
look around a little bit.
#10.5
No.
That's OK.
#66
Do you have to go to the bathroom, or anything?
#10.5
NO. Let me go next door.
PAUSE
#66
We're now recording again after we've taken a break.
#10.5
Where do I begin?
#66
Your first perception I believe was outside the
east end of the building.
I am interested in the
connecting thing between the two buildings and
the activity going on there.
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#10.5
OK.
PAUSE
#10.5
I had the feeling the small building on the right had a
slightly peaked roof. OK.
This thing like ..... open ground but it was actually
elevated off the ground a little ways and then it
was more just a screen. On the face of this building
there were either one or two very large, you know,
rather large, they're not large compared to other
things we've seen but they're large compared to the
proportions of the building. That's the only thing
that I have to go by. OK. There's either one or
two ....... and I will draw the second one in dotted
line.
Large door.
Now here, now here on this sketch, notice how I've
lifted it up off this dotted line which is actually
what would be the ground line, right. Now, and
under there, under that, it's hard to draw. I'll
draw an interior view of this thing.
It will be
better.
#66
Draw me a sign that says large building and an arrow
and small building and an arrow.
# 10.5
Yeah. Large building to west, with peaks, OK, tunnel,
open space, tunnel or screen.
#66
What makes you use the word screen?
#10.5
Well, because the dam thing was of no struc .... when
I got into it it was of no structural consequence.
You follow what I mean. In other words it wasn't
big massive steel girders or something that did anything,
it was something that was just sus ... to me it appeared
it was just built over the top of this thing. Like
a covered walkway in a hospital to keep the patients
dry. That type of a. . of a feeling is what I had.
You know. When you go from building to building,
covered over so you don't get ... like an awing
almost. Screen, I mean screen, not in a screen, not
in a screen like in a window screen. I mean a screen
like in a visual screen. You see, I'm using it in
that term.
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#10.5
Open space beneath two feet ..... OK ... and my
height on this thing is plus, minus, 20 feet
plus or minus. That's what I .... not plus or
minus. Twenty feet plus or minus, that's the
way to do that. OK. Now here, I had the feeling
on the left to that, just shy ..... on the big
building to the left that there was ... that there was
some sort of a stair out the outside of the building,
which I'm doing here with this squiggly line; and
I don't know where it went. I didn't go up it.
Now you have to remember your perspective on this
thing. This looks like it protrudes out of the
building, it doesn't, it goes up the side of the
building, from the distance into the foreground,
OK.
#66
Now, if I remember, I want to explain why my
perception of this, I'm not saying your perception
as you are viewing this is incorrect, but I'm saying
my perception of this is you were inside your passage-
way when you perceived this.
#10.5
Right. I perceive it to be outside on the other side
of the screen. In other words, if I was, if I was
there I really couldn't see it. But I could see it
because I was there the way I was there.
#66
Alright. So it is definitely on the outside of the
building and not on the inside of the building.
#10.5
I'm pretty sure of that, yes.
#66
But, normally as it were you can't see through this
passageway .
#10.5
Normally, you can't, no.
#10.5
There, that shows it more in perspective like that.
OK. It's a stairway like a fire escape.
#66
ок.
#10.5
OK. Now I had the feeling that I was on flat, solid
ground out here and I might even have been on hard top.
Black top or something, OK.
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#66
OK. Then I asked you to move inside this passageway.
#10.5
Yes. OK. Give you a better sketch there, that
should go ...... let me draw you a quick aerial, OK.
That will be sketch 2.
Make straight lines.
. . you mean you had me here, the X which will be
3, and you had me there, this thing was taller and
significantly wider than the other building, OK.
This I didn't see, so that's misleading. So I'll
just draw a dotted line there.
Here would be the staircase, OK. Stairs or fire
escape, OK. Come 2 we'll go inside then. Uh ..
I only had the feeling of a single set of tracks,
rails of some kind and I wanted to try to make
them into railroad rails, right, but ... with ties
and all that ... but I didn't and I'm not going to
say they're that kind of rail. But they're a metal
rail of some significant weight, OK. Ability ...
alright, now
.and had the definite feeling
that this thing stood up on posts, off of the ground,
OK. Like this OK. Now this is on 3.
And they just continued on ... now I had the feeling,
is that sheet metal or wood. If I had the choice, I
would say wood, more wood in this construction.
It
sits up on these posts, as a matter of fact, now that
I think about it, I'll just throw this post in there.
It was as though I was standing right up here on
sketch one. I was standing real close to it and I
said, "I wonder if I can look in under this thing?"
I got down on my, ,,bent over like this and I could
see all the way through. I could see the rails here,
I could see under the other side, I could see out
on ..
.....
Like towards the water in the dock that's ... up
there, you know. You know, I had the feeling that
light showed in under it. OK.
#66
Now, then I asked you to move to the little building.
So I am interested in seeing the sketch of where the
tracks end in the little building and the very
interesting object that you perceived that moves along
these tracks.
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#10.5
Alright. First I'll do in 4. I'll do in 4 to be
what .... uh .. I saw track wise, again, if I can do
it. OK. OK. This is the interior of the building.
Depth of it may be off because I've got to get
... I've got to have enough room to work with my
sketch.
But, I felt that the track went into the
building and then forked like almost with switching
... like it was heavy equipment, but it wasn't heavy
railroad equipment. But that it was equipment so
that a number of stations could inter-connect with
the main track that moved to the other building.
So I had this feeling of ... uh ... uh ... track, along
here, OK, and then track moving over to here, and
track moving over to here, like this, on the floor
of this thing. Almost like a miniature railroad yard
type set up, OK. I had the feeling there may be three
or four spurs, I'll call them spurs, three or four
spurs coming off this track.
#66
And this is inside the little building.
#10.5
Yes. Now, whether they come off the track or whether
they come off themselves, I don't know. I can't .....
I have the idea but I don't have the details. You
see what I mean. In and amongst these places are
like work and manufacturing positions and assembling
positions that are serviced by these rails.
#66
In this drawing on page 4 here, how about drawing me
an arrow that shows two large buildings where this
track goes out of the building.
#10.5
OK. It would be.
. . OK.
Large building is behind
this as we look at it. Direction of movement is also
of this other (mumbling) . OK. On 5 I'll give you .....
#66
Five, a picture of the thing that moves.
#10.5
Yes. This thing is about like .. a .. I have a pretty
good feeling about the width of these tracks. They're
sub-normal size. They're about half-gauge, or whatever
you want to call it. You know, something you'd expect
.... like a mine ... like the size you would find in a
mine. You know how it's a sub-size railroad track for
the mining cars. That's what I'm talking about, that
size of track. Call it 2 feet. OK. Now what did I see?
1
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#10,5
I'm going to try to give you the perspective that
also gives you the equipment.
PAUSE
#10.5
OK.
It's odds-rails, right. Alright.
Now this
sucker ... this was the general configuration of the
thing. OK. Now I had the feeling that ... I'll
write what the dimensions are ... ok. .. later. .. uh ...
It's really much bigger than this. This dam thing
sits up
#66
OK. It's time for me to change the tape so while
you're drawing that I'll go ahead and put a different
tape on here.
PAUSE
#66
OK. We're back now with a new tape and we're
recording again.
#10.5
This is generally the shape of it here with a
perspective view, ok. And, this is it in
perspective on the wagon or the thing, the cart,
and a man standing here. OK. It's this high.
I'm drawing it up here in the upper right hand
corner.
#66
To kind of give us an idea of the perspective.
#10.5
To kind of give us an idea of the perspective of this
thing. Yes.
#66
Can you tell me some more about this object? Can
you tell me about the colors of it and tell me about
the different pieces?
#10.5
Well, I had the feeling. .. first of all, I can ...
let me just give you a couple things here. I am ...
I have not a good feeling about the back end of
this thing, here. My sketch, because I can't draw
what it is, my sketch shows generally that the small
long end of this thing is a ... also a cowling of
some kind. It's not.
It's raw ... I had the feeling
that it was raw machinery sticking out but that the
other two sections of it were covered with cowling.
Like this thing was put into something and it was
protected somewhere else. You see what I mean.
This is like raw machinery as though, dried shaft ...
#66
As though this fit into something
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10.5
Yes. Like a dried shaft. You know how a dried
shaft has got all knobs and bumps and stuff ...
you can tell it's not a cover, you can tell it's
the actual thing, instead of being covered.
#66
Alright.
#10.5
But these things are cowlings of some kind.
They're
made out of ... they're sheet metal. They're light
and they're silver gray sheet metal.
#66
You're telling me it's an utside surface.
#10.5
... for the rest of the machinery that's inside.
#66
OK. But the long tube thing sticking out the is
not an end product thing. It's like ... it still
fits into something else.
#10.5
Well, it's the end product of the element.
#66
Alright.
#10.5
But, it interconnected with something else. You're
right. Supposedly, that other thing whatever that
is would then give it the necessary protection from
the elements, or from the air or from damage because
it's going to be hidden inside something.
#66
Now, on this cart draw me an arrow ... the way this
thing goes to the building ... the main building, the
big building.
#10.5
OK. And this is
#66
Do you get any other feelings about this thing?
Is it mechanical, electrical?
Is it ... any other
feelings. Just kind of draw impressions
#10.5
I'm going to give you that ... electrical coils,
copper coil ... a ... looking under ... you can see
copper coils when you look ... I'll draw the arrow
in under that cowling, ok. You can see it. If
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you took a front view of it you can see a pretty
good size dome. But, then around it ... the bigger dome ..
shield, you can look in under the front edge of that
shield and see all this mish-mash of copper coils
and copper wrapping and everything like that around
it. As though the thing was a generator, or something
like that. You can look in ... under the second, in
under that second shield, like a little air space,
like a little cooling air space.
#66
Can you draw me a picture of that? This would be in
the upper left hand corner of 5, here.
PAUSE
#10.5
OK. Arrow.
This is the forward ... I'll call it
forward. This is the forward cowel and then this is
the middle cowel and in here ... what did I do. OK
this is the back end of it.
See all these squiggly
lines around it. OK. Well the same thing is like
repeated in here.
#66
And, what do you feel those squiggly lines are?
#10.5
That's the copper wiring and coils and everything.
I'll draw ....... inside the middle cowel. OK. It's
continuous all the way around it. So. That's that.
Cowlings are sheets of metal, thin metal sheeting,
steel gray. I'll put a question mark. I didn't
really catch ... thinking back I seem to think that
it was just very bland, very bland steel colored
gray colored metal, you know.
#66
OK. Now, how about a picture of the .... as the tracks
went into the new building and they went up to the pit?
#10.5
OK .... 6 ... 6. I'm going to number 6 likewise. Need
a little more depth here.
PAUSE
#10.5
OK. I had the feeling on the left that there were
in the foreground ... ok ... some more of these objects
on the left side. Like they'd been taken off and
parked in there.
#66
About how many of them are there?
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#10.5
About two or three, that's all.
PAUSE
#10.5
Again I see those same objects. Alright, I wrote
two or three of objects in number 5. Over here
on pallats was more heavy equipment. You know, bigger
stuff. Uh ... what would I say ... gaskets, valves,
pipes, hoses, ok. I didn't see ... I didn't recognize
... I didn't identify any other massive elements,
mostly pieces. Stuff that's desk size, table size,
instead of stuff that is truck size. You know
what I mean?
And then over ... far over in the back,
if you recall I had my ... I said I think I see things
over there, ok. On the left side here I have a
feeling there was a wall there. But the built-in
front of this wall, or in this nitch, in this corner
here, was a box, ok. I'm just going to call it a
monitor, supervisor box, and there was something
sitting down here.
#66
OK. Now, when I asked you to move up into the box
yourself and look down at the pit, draw me ... what
that looks like.
#10.5
It was ... 7. I'll try to do this thing with a
reasonable amount of finesse here. Now. This
thing was ribbed ... let me draw ... let me start with
one and see if I can draw the second ... was ribbed
and ... there. That's the feeling I want to give.
Inside the pit itself, looking down, ok, I've drawn
the edge of this thing black so it will stick out.
Let me see if I can draw another one. They were
about ... I had the feeling they were about 30 feet
apart, maybe 20 ... more like 30 feet apart. I'll
draw the other one on the other perspective because
it's opposite my viewpoint ... down to there ... and
like that ... and down ... and up. There's one peculiar
thing wrong with this, now that I think about this.
I've got them too skinny at the bottom. They stood
above ... you're talking about b-i-g old equipment.
There, that's better. That's what the problem is.
#66
Now in your picture in number 7, here, I see the end
of the pit to the right here in your drawing.
#10.5
Right.
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#66
Earlier you said there was a rail around this so
the people didn't fall into it or something.
Now
in your drawing you haven't drawn the left side
of the pit.
#10.5
No. Just because I started the picture that way.
I was thinking when I started that I would have to
tape two of them together.
#66
My question is, "Could you see the left end of the
pit?" We didn't explore ...
#10.5
I had a feeling there was a set of gates. I had
the feeling there was a set of gates down there.
That's what my feeling was. It was just a blank
wall, in essence. A set of gates of some kind.
The thing that I want to get across here in this one,
I'm looking down. I'm actually looking down. I'm a
little bit back in the control box from this view.
The box goes right up to the edge. Actually, the
box is standing right here and you can look right
down in the thing, but I just can't draw it. So
I'm giving you sort of an off-view. Just from the
simple mechanics of it. But the inside of this
thing, the inside lip of the pit that you can't see
is just a mirror image of the opposite side. These
things just go down, they curve around, they come
up the other side.
A man's size is ... he was in there. What I had
going on in this activity was that the pit was empty
and that there were some people in there running
around amongst these things, these supports or these
cradles, sweeping up, cleaning up dirt, everything
... uh ... general maintenance type activity.
OK. I'll go to 7-A and I'll do it this way.
#66
It appears then that the track thing and the booth
thing that you saw appeared to be more at one end of
this pit than in the center of this pit.
#10.5
Yes. I didn't get the feeling that there was duplication
on the other side, but it seemed like it was. I
can't really say. Maybe that's off. Maybe I'm
screwed up. It might service the middle but it might
service the right half. It might be centrally
located but it might be the right half. I really
don't know.
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#66
OK. We know you could have winked in here
quite a bit. The question is ... I'm noticing
your drawings which are ... drawings you know
are sometimes very interestingly accurate.
PAUSE
#10.5
... gates or doors at the other end. Like that.
PAUSE
#10.5
... and these things are repeated down the length
of it.
#66
OK. Why don't you just write in there ... more ribs
or whatever. Or you can draw them.
#10.5
I'll just draw them.
... more cradle ribs, number
unknown.
#66
... anything else you (mumbling) about the ...
#10.5
I just want to say it was dry.
I went through and
I figured out ... you asked me what they did ... you
know ... go ahead and figure out what they do here.
So I did things. But then when you got me back up
in the control tower one more time and you said OK
what's going on here now, I ended up with the same
picture again.
#66
Alright. You perceive it to be dry now but that
there is some
sort of vessel construction in there
that's the activity concept of the thing.
#10.5
Yes. I'll go ahead and draw you the thing.
I'll go ahead and draw you that which is an
interesting. That might give you some size
conception as well
#66
OK.
Activity concept then.
#10.5
Right.
PAUSE
#10.5
OK.
Now here are these things .... we end up with
a dry well. The ultimate thing that I wanted to get
across is that in perspective ... I'm trying to get a
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size determined here for you, whatever. What are we
going to call this ... this is going to be 8.
#66
OK
#10.5
Is ... that ... the big part stuck up above the edge
at about ... a little bit above. So that's what I'm
trying to say ... that's what I'm trying to figure
out ... let me just draw you a simple cross-section.
Simple cross-section is that the lip of this ...
that's too high ... that the lip of this bay came in
like this. On the submarine (mumbling) referred to
is the con ... sticking above the lip ... if you stood
on ... stood at the base of the con on top of the
submarine the lip might be three or four feet above
you over here. So then you have the con go on up
straight, passed you. Stick up above ... protrude
above the lip. And ... it sits in there like that.
#66
What was the status of the submarine that you saw in
there when I asked you to think about what the work
concept was or what goes on in there, what was the
status?
#10.5
No. I didn't get anything. That's all I got ... was
this ... like ... what is the progression of events.
Not what is actually done. I didn't pick up on any
work or anything like that.
#66
OK. And what did you see?
#10.5
Just that. Just this cross-section. Just as though
I was standing at the ... on sketch 7. .. if I was
standing at the right end of the bay, about half-way
down it looking at the ass-end of the submarine, I
saw this silhouette. And then the bay was sitting
like that, you know. Just the sketch I have right
there.
#66
OK. You didn't see what work was being done, or
anything, just this submarine.
#10.5
No .. Now the progression of general activity, what
I think I picked up was the series of dry bay, open
gates, flood, move vessel in, close gates, pump bay
dry, vessel sits in dry-dock.
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#10.5
To get the thing out of that is just the reverse
of it. Vessels water tight, you open the gates,
you flood the bay, you float the vessel out, you
close the gates, you pump it dry, and you maint-
enance ... you know ... you perform your maintenance
on the bay, not on the vessel. The vessel's
already done.
PAUSE
#10.5
I would like to say one thing.
That .. . that ...
building is a hell of a lot bigger.
I definitely
got that feeling this time through. .. that ... that
this was just ... a ... one side of the building and
that outside those gates was a water course.
Inside the building but outside those gates was like
the main water course that they did they're flooding
and they're ... everything ... with ... you know. .. They're
main thing came ... was out ... There was water out
there inside the building but that there was water
out there and that this particular case the water
was being locked out so that they could screw
around in this dry bay.
#66
OK. Now, you before ... in ... during this session had
this kind of feeling about more pits or ...
Can you
kind of give me a sketch of an overview of what your
impressions were there.
#10.5
Yes. Certainly.
I had two different feelings and
that's why it was confusing about me ... or confusing
to me. On ... 9 ... I had this impression, I had two
impressions and I'll do them on 9. One was that
at least two bays were side-by-side. It was like
an Island between them. I had this feeling. My
bay where I was starting ... what I perceived to be
the east end of that building was closed.
That
was perception. But the bay next to it I had the
feeling that there was something in it.
#66
OK. If you can call this a room area, was this in
the same room area. In other words, if you were
to stand ... could you see both submarines from the
tower?
Or was it another room type concept?
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#10.5
I don't think you could see the other ... you ...
you couldn't see the other submarine from that
same tower. I have the feeling that there was
redundancy of pattern there. That the control
tower is a thing geared to that bay, and that
the next bay over has one just like it. There's
assorted piles and jumbles of stuff and equipment
on this middle island here. See it here, in
between. That sort of blocked your view.
When I was at the first one, I could look down in
the mine but I had ... into my pit ... but I had the
feeling that I couldn't look over into the other
pit because there's something in the way.
I
didn't know at the time what that was. I just
forgot about it. Just literally forgot about it.
Then, I came up with this concept that there are
series of bays serviced by a central core.
#66
OK.
This is more of a feeling of the concept as
opposed to you actually saw a nice plans ....
#10.5
No.
I saw these two. Remember, I made a comment
on the tape. I'm over across the room trying to
look back where I was. That's ... this is what I saw.
I saw mine closed and dry and I saw another one next
to it, maybe 150-200 feet away that had something in
it. Whereas, mine was empty.
#66
OK.
Well, can you draw me kind of a water level
concept there so that we can see the situation here?
#10.5
I don't see what you mean ... water level.
#66
Well, you've got them kind of raised ... you have these
one bay doors closed and then you have this other
submarine thing and they're kind of raised up ....
#10.5
Oh, yes.
But still water level is ... ok.
Is that
what you mean?
#66
OK. If a ... where the bay doors open on ... for this
other submarine or closed or ...
#10.5
I could see the submarine.
I had the feeling that it
was open. But that's ... you know ... what validity that
has ... I don't know. I just look through them. For
all I know ... just ignore them and see if there was
something in the next bay.
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#66
But you're saying then that they could float out of
these individual bays.
Or you said there is some
central core thing. Can you give me an overview of
that or.
..
#10.5
Yes.
I'm just giving you my twor feelings. This
was a feeling.
The other feeling which will be on
the right hand side of the paper, I'll call it 9A
here, was that the ... that it was like ... if you
serviced the area using the palm of your hand that
your splayed fingers being the pits. The other
idea ... I did not see this ... this was just a thought
that occurred to me more than having ... than actually
seeing it ... was more one of taking this linear
concept and making it semi-circular, is basically
what it is.
PAUSE
#10.5
They're irregular, but you get the idea.
#66
But, you didn't actually see this.
#10.5
I didn't actually see this, no.
#66
OK.
I understand.
#10.5
Sort of ... sort of ... like an enclosed lake.
Float these things in it and you turn them around.
Remember, I used the term turntable, railroad
turntable on the tape during this session.
You
take the train, you put it on this platform, you
turn it around, you head it toward the right track
and you drive it off. Same, same here. The idea
was that you get the thing floated in, you can't
make a ninety degree angle with it. Of course,
they don't make a ninety degree angle with it.
They just float the sucker around and they steer
it in the right direction. Now whether this thing
is a total circle or if it's just a semi-circular
pattern ... it's hard ... you know, I don't know.
But
it might be that in order to lessen .. lessen the
problem of angle to dangle on this thing they may
have some central area where they can adjust the
boat and then move it in. Anyway it was just like
splayed hands. Splayed fingers. I'll darken it up
a little bit.
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#10.5
I'll write this concept, thought, and this is
imagery.
PAUSE
#10.5
Submarines slash boat pits in circular or semi-
circular pattern, OK. That was more the concept
or thought. This is what was. .. you see as I was
coming back I had across ... you see I had been over
here and I was trying to back over here to look at
it.
#66
I'd like to move now over to the west end of the
building.
#10.5
OK.
#66
You started out by standing on the roof of the
building and looking down.
#10.5
I'll label this ... looking down.
I can make this thing smaller, because we're dealing
with a massive thing.
Let me do the same thing but
do it lengthwise, ok.
#66
OK. I'm concerned ...
#10.5
I can get it all together here.
#66
OK. Remember now just as a concept when you look down
over the edge of the building and you're right there
on the edge you may not see the entire length of the
building underneath you. You may only perceive only
a very narrow focus right underneath you.
#10.5
OK.
I dig what you are saying to me.
Without any building lines to draw the perspective
I'll just draw you an aerial. Catwalk, or something
protruding. Again, I had the feeling it was like
metal scaffolding. Catwalk, question mark. Now I
had the feeling that there was a very solidly, defined
water course that proceeded out of the building here.
I had the feeling that the dam thing was like a runway
off the Hoover Dam. That type of construction, sharp
white angular poured concrete, and it wasn't a dug
canal, I didn't think. I had the impression it was
more a poured concourse.
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#66
There was some deliberateness in making this a
... a piece of water here, or what.
#10.5
Yes. Right. Now it looked like a long swimming
pool. You know, swimming pool. Sides to it and
everything else. Add the sides to it.
It's
like a concrete apron that surrounds it. Fence
on both sides ... some distance back from .. . you
know ... from the water course, or whatever.
Now, I had the feeling, here in the foreground
I have metal scaffolding or screening, catwalk,
question mark ... that I feel is attached to the
building wall. Like a couple stories down, maybe,
so that it overlooks the big entrance gate to this
thing. But I had the feeling of something ... of
other things that were out that straddled this
concrete water course at intervals.
I'll label this ... concrete water course.
#66
Then I moved you out away from the building and asked
you to look back at the building.
#10.5
OK. Now let me draw you one of these things on here,
real quick.
#66
These are the things you saw when you looked down?
#10.5
Right.
#66
Oh. You're saying this is something that goes over
the top of this.
#10.5
Right.
#66
OK. This is now outside of the building, there's
something over the top of the water that leads into
the building.
#10.5
Right.
#66
It must be very large.
#10.5
That type of a thing. Like more metal scaffolding
done at .... you know.
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SEGRET
#66
How many are there?
#10.5
I don't know.
I had the impression that these
things just continued on out the water course.
Like maybe every 75 feet. That type of thing.
They're just free-standing metal structure.
PAUSE
#66
You're angry.
#10.5
(Laughter) . . Ok.
Now you want me to go back and
look.
#66
OK. That's good. Out ... away from the building
looking back at the building.
#10.5
OK. I told you that I thought.
#66
This will be number, what ... 11.
#10.5
OK.
There's the water course looking as it goes
into the building. Now ... like lock gates.
Question mark. They open in ... was my impression.
Over top of them though, I had the feeling that
this existed. A little bit of a storm shield for
big doors or something.
See, it does have some
depth ... a little bit of wing to it ... you know ...
protruding out from the edge of the building.
But these doors move that way and they were
bloody huge. They were 45-50 feet tall, something
like that. They were multiple story tall.
And, that, up above this ... or part of it possibly,
catwalk was up there. Now the catwalk may be
the top of that too. Because, I don't know the
thing that was looking like a catwalk could be
that very same thing.
(not audible) ... some locked gate of some kind ...
a bolder gate ... a locked gate that swing open like
this. But then above it, it shielded by sliding
hanger type doors that move out.
#66
What else?
#10.5
That was about it.
Now here in the foreground
would be one of these metal things, you see.
-SEGRET
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SECRET
#10.5
One of those ... like that.
PAUSE
#10.5
They open inward and this is the ... very definitely
man made, and man covered, poured. I have the
feeling of poured concrete, you know, that this
thing was made out of ... and that this edge here, ,,
you know ... like when you dig a ditch or you dig a
canal you have a rounded edge and sort of crumbly
and everything ... weeds grow on it and it gets all
mucky and soft ... but it's sort of .. softens out.
This edge was 90 degrees sharp. I had a feeling
of concrete, very stark, and it wasn't going to
move. Wasn't going to wear out with age.
#66
OK.
Now.
Was there water there when you looked at
it?
#10.5
I kept getting these dry images. I don't know.
You notice, I've drawn ... a ...
#66
When I first asked you to look over the edge of the
building you said you see water.
OK. But then in
your drawings here, you've drawn me things that are
very crisp and clear without any water in them.
So,
now, I am asking you whether or not there was water
there.
#10.5
Uh ... I did not ... I did not readily identify it with
the water. It was not like I was standing on top of
the lake or anything like that. The water wasn't
there. But it may have been, because of what I was
trying to do. I was trying to find out all about it
so that I just ignored the water and got the true
contours. But if I had to pick one or the other, I
would say the bloody thing was dry. And the same
thing goes ... now ... even though I drew, I put blue in
there, even that ... this concept here. You know, you
asked me where the water line would be, but I did not
feel water at that time ... but that water was to be
there, but it wasn't there at that time.
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SECRET
#66
That's inside the building.
#10.5
Inside the building in number 9 ... and in ... even in
the thoughts concept at 9A, I did not see this big
pool of water. I saw more of the concrete structure
that the water would ultimately or is occasionally
... already maybe ... contained in when the time is right.
But it's not there. I have the feeling it's not there
now.
#10.5
OK. And you asked me what I would see ... the last
thing you asked me what I would see is go back on
the roof and see what was happening on 1 Jan 79, no
80, or whatever the date was.
#66
Yes. 1 January 1980.
#10.5
Yes. Well ... uh ... 1 January 1980. The best thing
I can do is give you a different picture to log ...
but ... ok.
#66
This will be number 12.
#10.5
Right. Ok. I had this feeling, and I had a
definite feeling of water.
#66
Now you feel water. When I asked you to look at
1980, you're saying that was definitely water.
#10.5
Right.
#66
As to the proposed to the somewhat nebulous feeling
you had.
#10.5
Right.
PAUSE
#66
Just put a number 12 on that page.
#66
Is there anything you want to add? How do you
feel about this imagery? How do you feel about
what we did here?
-SEGRET
32
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OCONLT
#10.5
I feel ... uh ... I feel good about what I got, but, I
think a couple of your questions threw me. I had
the ... I had to sort of drop back and regroup, and
a couple of times during the thing I probably did
not answer .... where I'd been distracted by something
going on upstairs. I just ... you know ... all of a
sudden I found myself just .. a ... what in the hell is
that going on, type of thing.
#66
You're interrupted by noise and stuff. OK.
#10.5
You know ... it would take me about a minute or a
minute and a half to two minutes to get back to
what it was. Always going back to my last imagery
to get it back firm.
I feel good. I feel reasonably good about it all,
but it's the enormity of the dam target which was
almost mind blowing. It's hard to maintain your
perspective when you're dealing with something
that's apparently as massive as this. If in
your own human reality you've never been placed in
something like it. The only thing I have going
for me is having worked with aircraft ... commercial
aircraft before ... you know. Dealing with these
huge bodies that make you feel miniscule and huge
and these huge aircraft hangers, and things like
that. I do have that, at least to draw on, you
know, as far as ... uh ... perspective. It's like
dragging it up out of my past. But generally the
imagery is about the same as before. Yes, about
the .. . oh, wait a minute. I forgot to tell you ...
there's that control thing. Let me draw you a
quick one here. Number 13.
I'll just draw the
edge of the building (mumbling). This is like
the building, and this ...
#66
When I asked you to go 300 feet out, or something.
#10.5
Yes. Right. I have the feeling there is a little
curve ... general curve starts in this thing to the
right looking out from the building ... and that there
are these ... these things are over it. They may have
something to do with the towing and movement power.
Another thing I asked ... I sort of asked myself ...
is there anything located along the banks that these
things would be tied up to ... towed in ... but I
couldn't get anything out of it. But I did.
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SECRET-
#10.5
... this feeling of these overhanging things was
rather strong.
I had this feeling like .. . you
know ... hellas sketch of the overpass with all
the concentric circles. When you had me out there
looking back in the building it was almost like
that. It was just like rectangle inside a rectangle
all the way down to the edge of the building. It
was that ... it was very good feeling that there were
those things there ... and that they were in a regular
pattern all the way along this thing. Anyway ... in ...
that ... right here sort of at the end of this curve
is this little glass ... control booth ... maybe a
control booth, maybe something totally different, but
I had the feeling like it was an observation post.
(mumbling) traffic. That was the feeling there.
OK. That's about it.
SECRET-
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TAB
..
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body to W
1
-
-
20±
open Space
= 2 hugh
.
conenti
Par
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escape

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-
-
-
-
-
1.
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e

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-
1
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3)

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--
work.
table, etc
duction
of movement
50
ble
de
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1
K
27
3 mrd spara

(5)
1
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dowe
court
Uncede middle
cont
Couting their
are
metal sheeting
steel grey ?
Raw
Machinery
drive shaft
sigo
Fleatural copper onel
to man liest
2
bedin
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16
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monitor ac
Supervisor
box
7
Start
Spit
edge
2003
of visits from
darf
Check
0
quakets
values
peper
10000
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it was
dig
i at
time
-
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-
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1
cradle
-1
-
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1

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00
..
-
5
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(po)

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oncept / thought
(
Submarine/boot.
pets
en circular
or sime-
circular
pattern
×
-
Central
Water
area
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10
from
four
Looking down
west end of bedy
luce
aprom
7
Concrete
apron
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1
1
1
Concrete
water
Course
... ..
Pince

11
(
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bldg
week
background
catwalk
hansaitype
doors
Lock
gates ?.
7
Gpu
award
water course
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1
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1
Movement
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13
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..
glass
post
monitoring
*traffic
00
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TAB
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SG1A
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