CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/0
SEGRET-
KROP96-00788R000100120001-8
ORCON/NOFORN
1
INSCOM
GRILL FLAME
PROJECT
SESSION REPORT
CLASSIFIED BY: Director, DIA
REVIEW ON: 1 NOV 99
EXTENDED BY: Director, DIA
REASON: 2-301-C (3) (6)
GRILL FLAME
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET

Approved For Release 2000/0
17 DA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
SUMMARY ANALYSIS
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSIONS C73 AND C74
1.
(S) This report provides documentation of two remote viewing
sessions conducted in compliance with a request from OACSI, DA.
This office was requested to provide information concerning what was
SG1A
2. (S)
The viewer had not attempted any remote viewing for over one
month and he had some difficulty getting started in Session C73. After
a period of time, however, he was able to resolve relevant target
imagery. He had no trouble at all in Session C74 and was highly
motivated by the importance of the target and the information he was
providing.
3. (S)
The protocol used for these sessions is detailed in the
document, GRILL FLAME Protocol, AMSAA Applied Remote Viewing Protocol (S) ,
undated.
SG1A
4.
(S) Following are transcripts of the viewer's impressions during
the remote viewing sessions. At TAB A are drawings made by the viewer
reference his impressions of the target site. At TAB B are analytical
comments.
is on file in TAB C of Session Report C54 and C55.
Approved For Release 2000/08 070014-TDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
TRANSCRIPT
REMOTE VIEWING (RV)
SESSION C 73
#66
This will be a remote viewing session (edited for
security) .
PAUSE
#66
It's time now to focus your attention on the target
for today.
Go to a large concrete building located in the vicinity
of:
SG1A
PAUSE
#1
First impression I have is three large white numerals
251. . I don't know what that means but that's the
impression I have. I'm kinda going down a .. some kind
of a slanted type walkway with a rubberized or plastic
flooring that's ... interconnecting .. uh .. two spaces in
the building ... two areas in the building. . and. . uh ..
as I come out of this walkway and then a. .. and then a ..
end of a large open type bay. Some kind of a raised
open area on the left. Looks like a Ford that's jacked
up for some reason .
There's a lota bright light and
noise.
PAUSE
#1
Getting impressions of a. . spherical shapes. Some kind
of tubular type extrusions. . fixed on. I think power
for some reason when I look at them. They're really
not round, they're .. come out of an oval type things
+05
#66
Tell me more about this room that you're in.
#1
There's a .. it's got a high, high ceiling and there's a
.. like compartment rooms passenger's side. Like'a .. a
look like .. a .. glass enclosures .. some sort. I feel very
small in this room .. uh
SECRET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
#1
I see crains .. for some reason .. uh .. lift devices,
support on girfers or something.
#66
Go up to where these lift devices are on these girters,
and look down. Go up and then look down and describe
what you see.
#1
Looks like a .. I'm looking down like I was standing in
the bottom of this. . uh. . like a ramp type thing. . a wide
ramp. This ramp comes out of this tunnel like affair.
There's this ramp. . uh. . floors .. uh .. the walls are high
on the ramp where it comes in but they narrow down
towards the. . uh. . center of the floor .. towards the center
of the room. Feels like a .. some kind of shelves .. shelves
are .. uh .. cat walks or something on the right.
#66
OK. Tell me about your position of observation.
#1
I'm towards one wall where I came in the building and
I'm up by the girters looking down and I'm looking at
the length wise of this ramp under me. There's a
.
#66
OK.
I want you to stand on the ramp facing the tunnel
.. facing the tunnel. Now I want you to move very, very
slowly down the tunnel because it's necessary to know
.. from where that tunnel comes. So move very slowly down
the tunnel, down the ramp so we can find where it comes
from.
#1
I get impression of some kind of heavy doors .. some kind
of heavy metal doors ...
#66
And on the other side of the doors ..
#1
Cold. I get the feeling of cold. Damp and cold.
Outside is on the other side of the doors. It's very
dark outside.
+10
#66
Come back down through the tunnel and look very carefully
at the tunnel as you come back down in through the
tunnel back into where you were. Tell me about the tunnel.
#1
The tunnel is very smooth and. . uh .. I get some feeling
that some kind of coated rubberized stuff. Like I
can reach out and feel a heavy coated .. heavy covering of
rubberized material. The floors are very, very smooth,
concrete .. type floor.
2
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CARDPOR:09788R000100120001-8
R

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 C/A-RDR96-90788R000100120001-8
OLDALT
#66
What's the tunnel used for?
#1
Moving things .. move things through the tunnel. There's
something missing in the tunnel .. I know. . something's
Supposed to be in the tunnel and it's not there.
Something missing.
#66
Now move back into the room that you were in before ..
move back into the room that you were in before.
#1
Very bright lights .. noise.
#66
What's going on in this room?
#1
I .. I'm sensing a .. brilliant flashes of light. . uh ..
sparks .. like someone is cutting some metal.
#66
Describe the size of this room.
#1
It varies. The highest section of ceiling is probably
four stories tall-five stories tall. Very, very high
but there's parts. . parts (not audible.) like there's
a section of drop ceilings .. there's something hanging
.. like boxes hanging from the ceiling on the sides
.. circular thing in there. . I don't .. I want to say pit
but I .. I'm not clear about that. . I don't. . I want to say
large circular pit very deep .. but it. For some reason
I don't feel like it's in the ground.
It's not in the
ground. It should be a cylinder but it's not .. I want
to say pit .. or there's thick glass of it .. size of it.
Like you can be in the pit looking into it .. it .. the bottom
of the pit. It doesn't make any sense, but that's what
I get.
#66
Looking at the wall directly across from where you are,
how far away is it?
#1
Which wall?
#66
OK. Let's start again. Describe your position of
observation.
#1
I'm standing in the ramp looking up the ramp .. into the
building.
#66
Move to the wall where you came into the building.
3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 + CIA-RDP96-00188R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CtA-RPR96-00788R000100120001-8
#1
There's an opening there. I am standing in the opening.
The ceiling in the opening .. the edge of the wall .. is
maybe 35-40 feet high but it slopes back behind the
.. like the ramp. It's like a. . almost a tunnel like
affect that ramps down.
And the walls to my left and
right are perhaps 30 feet either side of me. Very
large .. almost square opening. Large ramp. I get to
the top of the ramp I'm a 1/3 of the way up the inside
of the building. Feel like there's other areas in that
.. the bay area that are low and some that are higher
and on top edge of that ramp very heavy construction
concrete .. looks like on the corner of the ramp and in
front of me there's a .. like a small .. uh. . small pedestal
type crain ... no it's not a crain .. it's a .. it is a crain.
It's some kind of a crain with an extender arm on it.
Slides a little bit on this pedestal.
Like a lifting
thing.
#66
Describe to me where the objects go from this room when
they're through working on them.
#1
They go in a coffin type thing.
It's like a. . they go
in a coffin like thing on the back of submarines.
#66
How do the objects leave this room?
By what method do
they leave the room?
PAUSE
#1
Get the impression of a .. a. . carriage kind of thing that
carries a .....
#66
Where do they go?
#1
They go into this coffin like thing.
+20
#66
Where is the coffin like thing?
#1
Somewhere near the tip. . the .. no. . somewhere near the
tunnel.
It's a (sigh)
I don't know if it's a carrying
case that coffin or what it is. They're layed in this
case ... this coffin like case and they're .....
#66
And how is the coffin like case moved?
#1
It's like a carrier .. a carriage type thing on rails ..
not rails but on the overhead rack type thing. . a ..
trick of moveable lift device.
Approved For Release 2000/08/0
2 .- RDB96-09788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08107: CIALRDP98-00788R000100120001-8
#66
Alright.
Now move along with it to where it goes.
#1
It goes all over the building.
#66
Fine.
Move along to the next area where it goes next.
# 1
I'd go to the pit.
#66
And what happens in the pit?
#1
I'm looking at the pit crossways and I'm seeing
... the top edge looks like there's water flowing over it.
And it fills up. . and then the water goes out the bottom
and empties, but its continually filled and emptied but it's
not full now. And these things go in this .. go .. go. . they
go in the pit .. they are put in the pit but they don't
leave them there. They just go in the pit for some
reason.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
Is the pit in this same room?
#1
Yes.
It's in the far left corner of the room.
#66
Is there anything in the pit?
#1
There's a cable thing in the pit .. a. . electronic cables.
#66
Is there an object in the pit filling the.
.
#1
Nothing in the pit now.
#66
What belongs in the pit?
#1
Water.
I get a .. I get a strong impression of .. work ..
don't work with .. associated with the pit. . like they
use it and they don't use it. I don't understand it.
Like a .. the pit, the sides that the objects leave the
building.
#66
If the objects were put into the pit, or had something
to do with going to the pit, how does the pit help them
leave the building?
#1
They. . a. . they're. . the environment changes.
I don't
understand. They do an environment change.
#66
Alright.
PAUSE
5
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CARDPod-00188R000100120001-8
T
.

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
OLVALT
1
They check them in the pit, and look at them in the pit.
#66
What are the ...
#1
Get the feeling of pressure in the pit when it's used.
Heavy pressure at the bottom then little pressure at
the top
PAUSE
1
#66
OK. I want you to move your perspective now back up
to the crains .. up high on the crains .. they are moving
on the girters. Tell me when you are there.
#1
I'm there.
#66
Alright.
#1
I may feel better there, too.
+25
#66
Alright. Very good. Now I want you to move in this
large cement building that you are in. I want you to
move to a different area than the area that you have
been describing to me.
I want you to be attracted to an area that is interesting.
#1
There's a far right wall corner of the building there is
glass wall and there's a a looks like a very pristine
type lab behind the glass wall and there's a small ...
small electronics there .. pieces .. a little electronics
there. White .. large white tables with a dishes and
pieces of electronics. Has .. I am impressed with. . what
side view is ... very clean. Even the air is different
there .. it smells different.
You can. . I can see the
inside of the concrete building from inside the lab.
I get a feeling there's glass separating that view but
I don't know if I am looking through a wall or
#66
Move back out into a larger concrete building.
#1
Ah. . OK
#66
And move to the area that attracts your attention.
PAUSE
6
Approved For Release 2000/08/071.CIA RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
----
#1
There's .a. . shelves by the catwalk through the ...
I don't know what to call it. . it's a .. I'm loosing the
target .. wait a minute.
#66
Just relax and concentrate.
PAUSE
#1
It's like a frame work or some sort supporting some
kind of thing that's being put together. I feeling
things and then put together somewhere else and they're
being fixed or changed or modified or .. there's
something being done to them.
+30
#66
Describe your position of observation.
#1
Standing in a .. center approximate center of building
and I am looking down and the tunnel's on my left
and the pit's to my front right and almost centered but
not quite .. to my front down is a frame thing holding
some kind of opened .. long opened type thing.
I am
trying to get a clear ... but it's a very complicated
(not audible) . It's open and there's .. there's tubes
and everything inside .. I am trying to .. wires .. I am
trying to.
...
#66
Describe the size.
#1
Large. Perhaps 20 feet in length and .. maybe 5 people
laying down head to feet in lengthen. Almost 3} feet
across .. 4 feet across.
Tubulure but it's not pointed.
Tubulure.
#66
OK. I want you to now listen to the sound of my voice.
I want you to concentrate on looking up at the ceiling.
To look at the ceiling very carefully and describe it
to me.
#1
OK. I see a .. perhaps (counting) six very thick columular
concrete reinforcements around a width wide on the
building. Span of ceiling and there's squared indentations
in the concrete in between and there appears to be
very, very bright illuminate lights that are suspended
from the ceiling. Some are very high up and some are
very low. There's track type things supported on the
end of long steel rods coming out of the concrete supports.
And they are welded to the rods .. and there's loops of wire
.
everywhere. . appears to be wire or cable.
7
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 C/1 1/0090 50788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 /CIA-RDP98-00788R000100120001-8
+35
#66
OK. I'd now like to try to broaden your perception
by exchanging some information with me and you now.
Something we haven't done before and we may. . may
help you to understand what's going out there.
The area that you described to me appears from your
description to me to possible be only a small portion
of the building. . one area of the building. This
building that you're in is very very large and I am
wondering if you are looking at one area and perhaps
seeing the wall and thinking that's the end of the whole
building when actually if you went through that wall
to the other side you would find that there is much
more to the entire building.
I'd like you now to relax and concentrate and focus
on the concept of this very large, large building,
and see, through exploration, if you can't find the
bigger perspective in this building.
#1
(not audible) and I look through the wall. I see on
the tunnel side, the tunnel wall, I see nothing but
outside ...
PAUSE
On the other wall standing in the ramp to my left I
see glass windows very high up and steel doors to the left ..
big doors. But they are going outside. To my right I
see .. I am looking cross sectionally through many, many
floors and offices. And to my front I'm seeing more'
room. There's a .. get the feeling ... I'm looking ...
very organized ... I am looking at a very hugh manufacturing
facility of some sort .. through the front wall .. like an
assemply plant and it's one open building, very hugh with
gray (not audible) and machines.
#66
Move now into that area so that you might explore it
better.
#1
There's doors in this wall that separate the rooms and
this room I'm in now is a great rows of machines. . tooling
dies and I think this is where the noise is coming from.
It's very loud in here. . much louder than the other room.
I'm getting an impression like I had in the other session
like there's a mock up of some sort or a partially
completed form and there's great deal of metal welding
and this sort of thing.
8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 69 11DI 90100768R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07: GIA PDP06 00788R000100120001-8
#66
OK.
Try to describe your position of observation now.
#1
Dead center, overhead.
PAUSE
#1
Dead center overhead.
#66
Alright. Now, to your right I want you to move to the
extreme end of this area down to your right.
#1
OK.
I'm in the corner.
#66
Now look out over the area now and tell me from this
perspective what you see.
#1
Uh ... uh ... I see a .. see a .. to my front right I see a
some big moving type thing with great hunk of metal
hanging from it, and it's like suspenders, a little
"lays off the floor and there's a fanning out to the
left of that is. . what appears to be a great number of
rows of machines .. large machines and towards the
center of the room on the far side there's a. . like a
light up type object.
mach
#66
Light up of what.
#1
It looks like the back deck and the sail portion of
a submarine. But it's not. . you know .. it's not a complete
ship of any sort.
#66
Move again from this area, exploring through the walls
move again.
PAUSE
#1
OK. I go to the wall I came through and make a left.
I see all the high windows and doors and it goes to
the outside. I go through the righthand side I see
cross sectionally many offices and there's another
tunnel type of thing .. looks like some kind of another
ramp that goes into the offices and, if I go straight
ahead I come out in a .. some kind of a yard .. some kind
of a big yard and there's a. . there's two big doors
there .. and .. a .. kind of overhead framework. There's a
sort of lumber yard only it's metal
PAUSE
9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07
-PDBOA 00788P000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/02/07-71A-RDP96:00788R000100120001-8
# 1
I get a strong impression that .. a .. there's
really three or four really significant things that
are occuring in this building. I think they are all
related. I don't get any sense of re ...
(turned tape over)
... I get a tremendous feeling of modification and
assembly. Modification in the big room and assembly
in the little room. For some reason, I can't call
the other room little, it's fairly large and. .. a ...
almost like a fabrication type thing ... getting a
feel ... you know ... just a strong feeling of modification
like something is being done .. that .. that something
already exists. To either improve it or upgrade it or
add some other potential to it.
#66
OK.
Describe your position of observation, right now.
#1
Just kind of all over the building.
#66
Alright. Focus your attention, right now, above the
building, outside and above the building.
#1
OK.
#66
Now in order to orient where you are, let's work
with your front rear, left right. Tell me what's to
your front, describe what's to your front.
#1
To my front is a (pause) looking down on the building
to my top sort of
.. to my front. If I was ... let's
do it this way .. if I'm standing on the roof in the south
looking to my front there is a sort of indescriminate
type building much lower that's connected to the one I
am standing on. It ends on water.
And to my right,
is a loading dock and a channel of some sort (not audible)
with water.
#66
And to your rear ..
#1
To my rear is a angular framed storage area with pieces
and stuff laid out, lumber yard place like only with metal,
and to my left is a continuation of the building I am on.
That cross sections and offices. Fairly large building
extension.
10
Approved For Release 2000/08/0/ LCTARAF30-40788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/40147 -- C14 PDP96-00788R000100120001-8
#66
Move over to the edge.
#1
Which one.
#66
To your front.
Move over to the edge to your front and
look straight down over the edge and describe what's
down there.
#1
The roof of another building, it looks like.
It is a big flat area with a .. I get the impression
theres two channels there, like a flat area with a
two big channels running through it .. big square flat
area .. looks like a roof.
#66
OK.
Now move to another edge. The one immediately to
the left from where you are now.
#1
OK. I see all the way to the ground and further down
on the left is another extension of the building that
comes out .. right angles to the wall I'm looking over.
PAUSE
#1
I get the feeling, when you said look over the edge
and I see the building roof, I get the feeling I'm looking
at water too and I don't .. I get a strong feeling of
that .. I'm seeing that. . the roof.
I am not seeing water.
I don't know how to explain that.
I am getting the
feeling of consolidation, too. I .. don't ask me why I
am saying that now, but I .. I get a feeling a consolidation
.. that's a flash type feeling.
I better mention it.
I .. I .. I. . you know I mentally want to see big sub-
marines, but there are none. I'm seeing a much smaller
class of submarine that I am normally used to, for
some reason.
1
#66
Where are you seeing
#1
I'm just getting flashes of these.
They're not your
typical large submarine. I'm getting flashes of the
smaller version, for some reason or another. They
appear to be as fat as the old ones but they're shorter
and their .. the sail isn't very high. . it's. . . uh.
...
just .. I don't know .. I just get the .. I'm getting the
flashes and. . uh. . I sense that's important.
11
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 · CIA RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDR96-00788R000100120001-8
#66
Tell me where they are.
#1
They're under a roof somewhere but they're in water.
They are connected to the building and they are under
a roof and they are in water.
#66
Describe your position of observation as you look at
these.
#1
Uh. . I don't know.
I'm just seeing them.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
I want you to keep them in mind.
I
want you to keep them in mind. We have been at this
for quite a while now but later this afternoon I want
us to go back to those very last images that you've
just had. Later this afternoon I want to go back to
those images that you've just had and work on them as
our focus point.
# 1
OK.
#66
So I want you to ingrain them right now. . remember them.
When you're ready sit up and draw what we've had this
morning and then later this afternoon we'll go back to
those images you've just had.
#1
OK.
ATMINISTRATIVE NOTE:
The narrative portion of this session wherein the viewer
drew his impressions was recorded but has not been included in
this transcript because it provided no additional information and
is of little analytical value. A cassette tape of the entire
session is stored at the INSCOM GRILL FLAME Project Office.
12
Approved For Release 2000/08/67
KAKA 59:00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

1
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
.
RAISED
FLOOR
PIT
SHELVES
STEEL
DOORS
RAMP
TOP EDGE
Drow.
PERCANE
=
BOXES OR
Rooms
1
GLASS WALL
LAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

2
2
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
7
FLOOR
€
PIT
2007-
1
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

2,
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
3
YARD.
CRANE
DEVICE
....
PARTIALLY
COMPLETED
1
1
+
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
DOCKING AREA
LOADING
AREA
WATER
LUMBER AREA
Spett
ELEMENT
WATER
+ X
OFFICES
CONSOLIDATION
(BOXES
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
4

5
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
· SENO
SMALLER
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

6
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
9
WALL
Floor
-
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

SG1A
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
Next 2 Page(s) In Document Exempt
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
-
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07: CA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TRANSCRIPT
REMOTE VIEWING (RV) SESSION C 74
#66
This will be a remote viewing session (edited for
security) .
PAUSE
#66
It's time now to return to the large concrete building
in the vicinity of the coordinate:
SG1A
PAUSE
#66
When you arrive at the target describe your position
perspective.
PAUSE
#1
Uh ... top of the ramp. . top of the ramp.
#66
Tell me what's going on now.
#1
I don't know.
..
.it's like a (not audible)
... working on the .. a. . shelves or things ..... shelves ..
working on something like shelves.
#66
OK. Fine. Now this time I want to move you on a
direct, straight up verticle axis, straight up from
where you are. Move straight up to the ceiling. Tell
me when you're there.
#1
OK.
#66
OK.
Now.
I want you to go on through the ceiling
.. nor moving any place but up. . straight up through the
ceiling 'till you're outside the building and hold that
position just outside the building. Tell me when you're
there.
#1
Ок.
#66
Now.
Remember this position and describe to me where it
is on this roof of the building. Describe to me the ..
your location on the top of the building. Directly over
where you started from.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
#1
See .. uh .. the end of the building.
#66
Alright. Look over the end of the building and tell
me what's there.
#1
Flat gray area. A roof of some sort
..
#66
Look a little farther away. A little bit further
away from the building, more of a 45 degree angle,
and describe it to me.
#1
There's a .. some roads .. that's to the left .. 45 degrees
to the left .. some roads .. more buildings .. and there's
a .. and there's a. . some .... construction (not audible)
equipment and a. . looks like a .. a circular building
and water ..
#66
OK. Don't get too far away from the building in your
description.
#1
That's a wall.
building.
#66
OK. Come on back now, come on back now to the building
itself. Right where you were. Now which end of the
building are you on?
#1
The. . . a
#66
Do you recognize this end from this morning?
#1
Uh .... direction of the arrow, I drew an arrow ... arrow
ends ... the building.
#66
The way you were facing this morning?
#1
Correct.
#66
OK. And you're at that end of the building?
#1
Correct.
#66
Alright. If you'd look down, straight down the edge
of the building and what do you perceive to be straight
down .. if you look straight down the edge of the building.
# 1
Uh .. see a large gray area.
2
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 (SF RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
OLONET
#66:
All right.
#01:
flat roof.
Large gray square.
#66:
Okay.
That's fine. Move out into the large gray square
and look back at the end of the building.
#01:
See opening ... tunnel like ... square opening ...
#66:
Square opening? All right.
+10
#66:
Study this opening very carefully. (Pause)
Describe in
detail this opening.
#01:
... uh ... it's got a ... it's like a, some kind of catwalks
on both sides of the opening.
#66:
How high?
PAUSE
#01:
Halfway (not audible) ... looks a big warf.
#66:
What makes you say that?
#01:
There's a water, and ... water, and catwalks going out to the
water.
#66:
All right ..... and, that's on the end of the building?
#01:
On the end of the concrete building.
#66:
All right. Fine. That's very good. That's very good.
Describe your position of observation as you see this.
#01:
Huh .... standing in water ... standing in ice that's what
I'm standing in.
#66:
All right. Now, very slowly, how far ... first of all ... how
far are you from the building as you see this?
#01:
Uh ... 300 feet.
#66:
All right. Move 100 feet from the building, and tell me
.... move up so you are 100 feet from the building.
SEGRET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 - CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
#1
OK.
#66
Now describe it.
# 1
Large .. large square opening. A wall with large
platforms on the side and. . uh. . got overhead tracks like
inside the building. See. . the. . uh. . the overhead tracks.
#66
OK. Now I don't want you to get into the building yet.
I want you to stay outside the building.
#1
That's outside the building. There's a. . there's a roof
thing there cover.
#66
OK.
Moving, moving now 50 feet from the building.
#1
OK.
#66
Now describe the opening down at your level.
#1
Uh .. it's a .. it's a .. large square tunnel. Looks like
the other end of the ramp. It's a. . open about. . about
5 feet above the water.
#66
OK. There's a. . it. . you're standing on water, still.
Is that what I understand?
# 1
Yes.
#66
Alright.
And ... it's ... the building is what? Explain
to me a little bit more.
#1
Uh .. walls .. wall of building is in front of me and there's
an opening. It's up high. It's up high. Bottom edge is
about .. wait a minute .. I'm having trouble here.
+15
#66
OK. Relax and concentrate.
#1
There's a .. look like a platforms. They go across .. go
across the wall.
#66
OK.
#1
The bottom has openings in the. ..... platforms and there's
(not audible) catwalks coming out from the platforms and
openings ...... tall like an opening (not audible)
4
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 . CTA-MIDT 0 00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 - CTAART1996 00788R000100120001-8
VALT
#66
Alright. What's your position of observation?
# 1
In the middle of .. a ... gray square.
#66
Alright. Now, stand on the platform on that catwalk.
#1
... they're different. Catwalks come out of the platform.
OK. I'll ... standing on the platform.
#66
Alright.
Now. Look back where you came from. Look
down .. what's down ..
#1
Water.
#66
Alright.
Turn around 180 degrees and look down. What's
down?
#1
Nothing. It's wall. It's wall.
#66
OK.
#1
There's a. . stuff behind a wall. Very .. very strange.
There's a. . there's a some kind of a .. some kind of machine,
behind the wall .... (not audible) .. or something. Large ..
large engine type machine.
#66
OK.
.
#1
I don't know what it is.
#66
Is this inside of the building or outside of the building?
#1
It's in the bottom of the building behind the wall.
#66
I want you to move out away .. outside again, back on the
water where you were. Back out to the 300 foot mark,
300 feet out. Tell me when you're there.
#1
OK. OK.
#66
Now, I want you to scan from the extreme left to the extreme
right so you can see the whole in-surface of that big
building. From the extreme left to the extreme right.
#1
OK.
#66
How many openings are there?
5
Approved For Release 2000/08/07H CIARNO JO:00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000108107APDP92-00788R000100120001-8
OLDALT
:
#1
Three. Three openings.
#66
Describe which one we were just at.
Which one had you
previously been describing?
#1
Middle opening.
#66
Alright.
PAUSE
+20
#1
There's some minor difference-they all look alike.
.. have my back on some kind of door ..... back to the
thing that's closed ... or all three doors are alike ..
all three tunnels are alike.
See catwalks in the
middle. OK. To the left there's a. . there's a
catwalk along the wall. There's a platform, and
there's a .. a .. like .. another catwalk. On the left
third. . there's another catwalk. On the right there's
another catwalk on the right wall.
#66
OK.
Now. ..
. describe your position of observation.
#1
Got one of these .. my back to the sea.
#66
.. and what's in front?
#1
building and the bays .. the parking bays.
#66
Alright. Now we're going to try something new here.
I want you to stand there, looking at the building,
just like you're doing now.
If I understand correctly,
you're standing in the water, the sea to your back and
the building to your front.
Is that correct?
#1
Yes.
#66
Alright. Now listen very careful. While you're standing
there I want you to close your eyes. Close your eyes,
eventhough your still standing there, but you can't see
anything at all. Have you done this?
#1
Yes.
#66
Now, when you open your eyes again, it will be January
1, 1980. When you open your eyes again, it will be
January 1, 1980. I want you to describe the area at that
time.
6
Approved For Release 2000/08/07:07 << >F 50-00788R000100120001-8

.. .
Approved For Release 2000108/07": OIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SLOEP
#66
Open your eyes now.
PAUSE
#1
OK. There's no water. I don't see any water, but I
see a .. I see activity and I see. . uh .. hull forms ..
there is a .. there is water in the area but it's very
low and for some reason it's ... massive movement of
the water .. there's alot of bubbles in the water. Somebody's
working in the water or something. There's alot of water
movement. There's not as much as before and there's hull
shapes and there a .. there's a back .. backs are all open
on them. ... like a (not audible) feel like very far away.
There .. a .. there's .. they're doing something in black tubes.
+25
#66
Where are these?
#1
They're in the open part of the back deck of this ..
uh. . structures.
#66
Where are the structures?
#1
They're on the ships on the submarines.
#66
Where are the submarines located physically?
#1
They're sitting in the parking bays. Very square .. and
the water's ... water's kinda boiling up around 'em, bubbling
up around 'em for some reason.
#66
Now, back into the description of what they're doing with
the back decks of the submarines. Tell me about those.
#1
There's large, large black tubes sticking up and there's,
there's people inside the tubes and they're working.
#66
Alright.
#1
Don't know what they're doing. They arein these tubes.
There's twelve tubes on one .. from what I can see.
#66
How many submarines are there?
#1
I see four, but the right bay is empty. The right, front
right bay is empty. They're working on the second from
the left. They're doing something with tubes
7
Approved For Release 2000/09:07 : CA-RDR96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
OLGRET
#66
Alright.
Fine.
That's very good.
PAUSE
#66
How far along are they in their work?
#1
It appears
..
.. that they're taking out old tubes
and putting in new tubes .. Some are .. some are out and
they haven't put in the new ones yet.
Putting in a
different kind of tube. They're putting in another kind
of tube. One tube's almost out now; the rest are. ....
and except for two, three, they're changing the top.
#66
Am I understanding you to say that you are seeing both
the old style and the new style at this time.
#1
No. I just noticed this old one they're taking out.
Old tubes.
#66
Tell me why the new one is unique.
#1
It's thicker; it's got a larger diameter and it's a bit
longer.
And it has a. .. there's something about ..... there's
something about the way it's inserted that.
#66
Do these tubes that you're spanning run horizontally or
vertically as relationship to ...... (not audible)
#1
Up and down earth.
But not, not very vertical.
They're
cannon somewhat.
Camted towards the rear, it looks like
a cannon.
They go in at an angle.
They're empty
I don't know
#66
OK. Now let's focus your attention on the description on
these four submarines. An overall description of the
four submarines. I want you to think back to this morning
#1
.Uh.
. these. ... uh.
. . (pause) .... these are ..... uh.
.
. these are good ..... these are high-class submarines.
These are biggies
These aren't new ... they are old ones.
I .. I've .... I'm getting the heavy nuclear feeling about them.
I cannot ....
#66
I have a question I want to ask before we go on with the
description of the submarine, if you will bare with me for
just a minute. How did they come to get in the building.
..
in the bays, in the parking bays? How did they come to
get in there?
*
8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RPP86-00788R000100120001-8
COLORE+
.
IA
.

Approved For Release 200unPOCO KDPS0-00788R000100120001-8
#1
They, they drove in from the sea. Through a wall ....
that doesn't make sense. I get the feeling they go
under a wall .. through a wall ..... through a door in a wall.
#66
OK. That's fine. That's fine. I want to make sure that
I understand what you've told me.
That I don't want to
be suggesting anything to you so .....
#1
They go through a wall.
#66
I want you to correct me if I have interpreted what
you said incorrectly. They are inside the end of this
large building in some sort of parking bay.
#1
No. They're not in the big building.
#66
Alright. Good. Tell me where they are.
#1
They're under a different roof by the end of the
building.
#66
Under a different roof by the end of the building.
#1
A flat gray roof. I see a flat gray roof.
PAUSE
#66
Now, I want to review something here. I had you
standing in front of the building, on the water, OK,
and I told you it was 1 January 1980. Now, what
happened to your perspective then? Tell me what took
place when you opened your eyes.
#1
I saw this water in the bays and (not audible) .. ships
.bays ....
#66
These bays are not in the building ..... because you were
looking at the building before so I can't understand what you
what the change is.
#1
I look, I look at the building on the outside and I see ..
.. uh .. I see the building, or I look at the bays and I see
a dark square roof, and, it's in the building, the building
that I don't see .. it's in the building. I don't .. I think
it's on the end of the building. That's the best I can do.
# 66.
Alright. There seems to be a point of confusion there,
but we'll just leave it that. When we draw, you will have
to clear it up, when we draw a little later.
9
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 . CIA-KURSY
00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/ 1.
SEGRET
00788R000100120001-8
#66:
Will you turn your focus now to the submarines themselves.
Turn your focus now to 1 January 1980 to those submarines
that you see them working on.
#01:
There's something funny about the submarines. I don't see
any kind of marking on it. .. no flag or anything.
I just
see small numbers. There's no flags, no colors on the
submarines. Seems kind of unusual.
#66:
And what do you see. .. what kinds of markings are there?
#01:
Just numbers.
#66:
On the submarines, where are these numbers written?
# 01:
They're on the front top, right corner of the sail
looking from the sides.
They're small. .. very small
letters.
#66:
What color are they?
#01:
The color of the numbers. . is white.
White on black.
1
#66:
How many numbers. . how many digits. . how many different
numbers are there?
# 01:
Four digits.
#66:
Four different numbers.
Are there any letters?
# 01:
No.
No letters.
+37
#66:
Read me the numbers.
#01:
2. . and. . uh .. 5 .. 9 and a 1. I am not sure about the 9s.
That second 9.
#66:
Do the other submarines have numbers?
#01:
Uh. . yes.
they have numbers. I see. . uh .. no numbers on
the little submarine.
Wait a minute .. that doesn't .. I
don't know. I see a smaller submarine, but I am not
sure where I see it. Three, seven is the first two numbers
on another.
I think the next number is four and it's
either an eight or a zero on the end.
10
Approved For Release 2000/60
CADET
:Crv19o-PU788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/080
SEGRET
0788R000100120001-8
#01:
I can't see the rest of the numbers
.
#66:
Okay. Describe these conning tower to me.
#01:
Uh. . they're two-levels. . they're very thin. . in width,
but they're very wide. Not as wide as ours.
Our
submarines are much larger, but these are thin and
wide and not very tall, but not as tall as ours. . fairly tall.
Sort of a. . shaped like a backward "H" with thick legs.
#66:
Stand on the conning tower and look to the aft of the
submarine. Describe the aft portion of the submarine.
#01:
Can't see it.
#66:
Tell me why you can't see it.
#01:
It's a. . it's covered with water. I only see the tubes.
#66:
Tell me about the tubes.
MBW
IT'S like They're
# 01:
They're, , a, , ut kuje that're all uncovered. . all the
plating is gone and they're canted and they're being
removed. . being removed.
#66:
How many of them are there?
#01:
I see twelve, twelve tubes. Twelve, ten or twelve.
I can't see the last two very. . very clear. There's
a. . two that really look different.
#66:
How are they different?
# 01 :
..
. They're very small, very small. They don't appear
to . . uhhhave the same functions as the others. They're
just different, different size. I don't know why
they're different, but they're different.
#66:
Okay. I assume ... I have a question for you now.
A peculiar question. Are you still in 1980?
#01:
Yes.
# 66:
All right.
What time of day is it that you're looking
at these?
11
CCCDCT
Approved For Release 2000/08 00 LCMM-RDF 96-00788R000100120001-8

SCODET
Approved For Release 2000/09/07: - /A-RER96-00788R000100120001-8h
#01:
Uh. . uh. . looking . . looking at . . ah. . ah. . an. . a having
the time.
#66:
All right. Fine.
#01:
Do you.
·
#66:
Don't worry about the time.
#01:
Do you want the time there?
#66:
I want to know if it's a normal time of activity. Do you see
people doing things?
#01:
Yes.
#66:
All right.
#01:
It's .. it's .. it's early afternoon there.
#66:
All right.
#01:
.... but, there's something .. uh. . you asked, you asked me that ..
I don't know. Something is wrong with this my time. I don't
know. Their time is afternoon.
#66:
That's fine. That's what I was interested in, is if it was a
working time there, and you say yes, there are people doing
things there. Now ..... turn around now, and face forward and
describe the forward part of the submarine.
#01:
There's a .. there's a .. raised area .. above the water; it goes
for maybe .. uh .. 75 feet, and the rest is under the water.
There's a. . there's a hatch. . there's a hatch .. two .. two hatches
in the .. the raised portion.
#66:
All right. Fine. Now, I want you to put yourself out back
away from the submarines a little bit and tell me again how
many submarines do you see in 1980, January 1980, 1 January 1980.
#01:
See, see four.
#66:
All right. Are these four, all of them similar?
#01:
Yes.
#66:
All right.
#01:
One is different a little bit, but .. I think it's just older
... one is just older.
#66:
Okay. I want you to relax and concentrate now while I turn
the tape over. Just relax and focus on the target now. I'll
ask you another question in a minute.
(tape turned over)
Approved For Release 2000/09/07:
P96-00788R000100120001-8
'SECRET

Approved For Release 2000/08/07L CI4-RIP96:00788R000100120001-8
#01:
Feel like my body's moving around.
#66:
What is your position of observation?
#01:
Uh .. I'm on the, on the conning tower of the third submarine
and I'm kinda laying .. on my left side.
...
#66:
All right. Now, stand down on the foredeck of the submarine
where the hatch is.
#01:
Which hatch?
The little one or the big one.
#66:
The big one.
#01:
Okay.
#66:
Now, from the submarine look up. What is above you?
#01 :.
Rows of lights. Two kinds of lights. I feel ... I feel like
.. a .. one light and a light type. Feel heat from one of the
#66:
And further up ..
..
#01:
Uh ... girders ... construction girders.
#66:
Move up the girders.
Now looking back down describe the area
from that perspective.
PAUSE
#01:
Uh ... (not audible) looking down on ... three big bays there's a.
#66:
How high are you?
#01:
Maybe 100 feet ... no not that high ... 55 or 60 feet.
#66:
Are you on the inside or outside?
#01:
I'm inside.
#66:
All right. Fine. Tell me about the three big bays.
#01:
There's four submarines in the two right bays and there's none
in the left bay.
#66:
All right.
What's to the front of the submarines?
#01:
Platform.
13
Approved For Release 2000/0001. (TTRDP96100788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/01 +CIAIRDP96-00788R000100120001-8
#66:
What's to the rear of the submarines?
#01:
A wall. A wall and some doors.
#66:
How do I get the submarines out of here?
#01:
You open the wall.
+50
#66:
All right. Fine. This concludes the amount of questions that
I have about this target. This time I'd like to give you the
opportunity to say anything that you would like to say about
this target.
PAUSE
#01:
I'm .. I'm having a lot of difficulty with the end of the
building. I .. a .. look, look for the submarines on the end of
the building, and I see the building, and no submarines, and
I .. look, look at the submarines. . and, I look up and I see ..
ummm .... a different building from the inside and I know that
that wall is the .. uh .. wall of the building.
#66:
All right. Fine. I think you've done very well. I want you not
to be too concerned now about your confusion. This is why
we moved you ahead in time because we believe this area > be
in a state of flux, right now, under construction and changing.
That's why we moved you ahead in time to when it might be
completed or when we might have a more firm situation.
So, I
don't want you to be concerned about your confusion.
#01:
Uh ... #07 asked me about a square that I drew on my last drawing,
and .. uh ...
#66:
Outside the building area?
.
#01:
Yes.
#66:
All right, and if you'd like to explore that at this time,
you may do that.
-
#01:
There is a ... it's some kind of a nav-aid. The square's a ...
a electronics and a little building in it. Some kind of a
nav-aid. It .. a .. they ... direct shipping or something there.
Some kind of a navigational aid to that port. That's what the
building is. Appears to be old, though, for some reason or
another. Maybe it's a little out of state-of-the-art ...
or something old fashioned.
14
Approved For Release 2000 08/07 CIAWDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/01 ; CIA ROP9600788R000100120001-8
#01:
.... but, that's what it is. And, it is a.
I think. I thought it was a box, but it's a little building.
#66:
All right. Are you looking at that ... at that little building
now or are you looking at it in 1 January 1980?
#01:
I'm looking at it now.
#66:
All right.
#01:
That's what it is.
PAUSE
#01:
That's all I got.
#66:
All right. Move your arms and move your legs and take a
deep breath and sit up and draw.
PAUSE
#66:
How do you feel?
#01:
For some reason, today my arms are going to sleep. It's like I,
I can't even feel the pencil with 'em ..
. There's a
... I guess page 1 ... what I'll do is let's just see what I can
.
draw about the bays and the way it, it looked ..... There's a
... there's a catwalk type thing down the left side wall, and
there's a platform that comes out from this wall. Goes all the
way across, like this, and you have to imagine this wall
being here. Then, there's another one over here that comes out;
then there's. . uh. . two more catwalks going like this. Of course,
these are .. uh .. all these catwalks things are very long and ...
this distance in here is very large ... and these go down to the
water. That's a wall over here. Down here on the end there's
another wall of some sort, and over here there's. . uh .. that's
tunnel type entrances and this is the one that I was in. I get
the feeling goes into the building for some reason. There's
another one, and there's .. those track-like things come out of
here and go in different directions. And, there's water down
here.
#66:
Write the word water
#01:
Yeah.
#66:
Now, those are three bays, right?
#01:
Yeah.
#66:
Yet there is four submarines.
#01:
Oh, yeah. There's .. uh .. page 2 looking down from the top there's
.. uh .. that's the wall of the building.
#66:
The long wall.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 -CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8a11.
and that's the sea Q
there's. . uh .. two side walls

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 CMX-RDR96-00788R000100120001-8
#O1:
... which are darker.
And, down the sidewalls are the catwalks.
There's a platform at the end. Two more catwalks ... this ... and
there's the. . like tunnel ways or ramp ways, I guess. . . through
the wall, and the submarines are apart like this.
There's
nothing in this one. They're all pointed this way, and those
first in the bay .... they're working on this one ..... and there's
something different about this one. It's an older one. I
don't know how to explain that. I just sense that it's an older
sub .... and there's a lot less water in this, in these bays .....
in January 1980 which is this .... than there is in the bays here.
#66:
Okay. You never saw the bays in present time. I never was able
to develop you to see the bays in the present time. It was only
after I sent you to 1980 you saw the bays.
#01:
Yeah. I .. well, okay. That's probably analysis on my part. But,
I'll tell you that in 1980 January there's less water there for
some reason.
#66:
That's fine. The water then you perceived when you were
(not audible).
#01:
I don't ..... any other time, yeah, any other time ...... and. . uh ..
sails on the submarine. I don't. . first .. uh. . the back deck comes
out of the water like this. This is like. . uh. . let's call this
water here; there's like a rise, thick rise in the sail. There's
a sail, and it's shorter than our submarines. The front deck
goes out like this and drops way in the water. And the submarine
is actually much larger, and here, it's like rectangle on down
the side of the numbers. On the sail ... there's nothing at all
that I could see protruding up above the sail on the sub ... but
this area back here is where all the plating was opened up and
they were ... they were working here. There's like tubes canted
this way. Those are tubes. Yeah ... and, there's a very large
hatch up front. There's a very small hatch here. There's no
other markings on the submarine. Very strange. And, I don't
see any apparent ornament of any sort. I can't think of anything
else.
#66:
Okay. Can you explain a little bit about your feeling of
nuclear?
#01:
I was trying to decide whether or not they were nuclear
powered or nuclear armed. And, for some reason, I kept thinking
powered, nuclear powered. But I, you know, I get, I get confused
when I start trying to detail nuclear anything, but, I just know
that there's something nuclear about 'em. I think it's probably
powered. Some reason I couldn't say armed. Couldn't say armed
for some reason. I don't understand why, but I just couldn't
do that. As they're sitting in those bays, they're just nuclear
powered. Let's put it that way.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96 00788R000100120001-8
CLONLI

CECDET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 . CIA-RDP96.00788R000100120001-8
#66:
Okay. You did make a comment that the tubes were empty.
#01:
Yes. These tubes were .. uh .. you know .. they're just like some
kind of tube and they're sticking up out of this, these very
complex type thing down here. They're side-by-side, couple
of 'em are sticking up further than a couple of the others.
Some hadn't been touched at all, and they, they were extracting
'em this way. And, the ones they were putting in, they were
doing some kind of modification down in here, and they were, they
were just putting in ... it seemed like they were opening 'em
larger, you know, making 'em larger, and there was kind of a
design difference on the tube for some reason.
#66:
What about these tubes that were different?
#01:
Oh!
That ... in the row of ten or twelve it may be that there's
10 that look alike; 12 that don't. Back here there are two small
tubes. And, they're real small and they're a ... they're straight
up and down and they're very short ... and I'm not ... these are
different, you know. I don't know what those are. They're
different. You know, they're entirely different from the big
ones. But, I. . I get a strong feeling that functionally they're
very different as well. They're there for something.
but, I don't know what it is
cannoling like this.
You know, I get a feeling almost in these that the cant in these
tubes might be the way they have to be now. but not the way they
had to be before, you know. Like that might be part of modifi-
cation.
#66:
The fact that they're slanted now might be
#01:
Yeah ... and ... I'm not looking at any other part of the submarine
and they could very well be even ... you know ... some other severe
modifications to it somewhere, you know. Like a .... double the
width or something. I don't know. But, I almost get a sensation
like ...... this section of the submarine in its entirety is
being modified or changed ... that I put in brackets here. It's
like that whole thing .... I mean superstructure and all has been
changed, But, that might be wrong. That might be analytic.
I just get that feeling.
#66:
Okay. Now, I have a question I wanted to ask you before.
that even this morning the question came up ..... something about
short submarines and long submarines, and then this afternoon
you seemed to be concerned about short submarines and long
submarines. Will you kind of think about that for a minute?
17
,
Approved For Release 2000/467. 14 Bho>:00388R000100120001-8

ACAD 00788R000100120001-8
Approved For Release 2000/0807E COTTET
#01:
Now ... I don't know if it's ... maybe it's my perspective of the
larger submarine. Maybe looking down on 'em I get the impression
of a small submarine because a lot of it is hidden in the water,
and the side view I'm seeing the entire thing, I don't know
if it's that or if somewhere in the area of this building or in
this building they're not doing a like version of this submarine
only a smaller variety ..... I just get .... I 'm getting flashes
of a more compact submarine. Essentially the same design but
a more compact model so to speak. Sort of like a pocket battle-
ship, you know.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
A battleship, but nevertheless, but a smaller version.
This
is a good profile submarine. It's definitely what it looks like.
#66:
Okay. How do you feel about this .. uh .. this session?
#01:
I feel real good. I was getting a really strange sensation
at the very end, like my whole body was rolling over on the
couch here, but ... I don't know if that was nerve reaction in my
body ..... laying so long in one position or not ..... I was
definitely getting strong feeling that I was ... ha, ha ... rolling
over.
#66:
Anything you want to add?
#01:
Nope.
#66:
That'll do it then.
018-0
Approved For Release 2000/08/07: GIA RDR96.00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
AT
FORM
1
WATER
WATER
WATER
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

2
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
2
TUNNEL
WAYS
BLDC WALL
-
.
WORK IN HERE
WALL
-
SEA
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
3
- DIFFERENT
00
- NAS.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
TAB
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

SG1A
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
Next 2 Page(s) In Document Exempt
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
. .. .
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
--

SG1A
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
the mucher
that
#66
Will you turn your focus now to the submarines and such.
Turn your focus now to 1 January 1980 to those submarines
you see them working on.
#1
There's something funny about the submarines.
I don't see any kind of marking on it ... ,.no flag or
anything. I just see small numbers.
There, NO
flags, no
taller than sumbarines. Seems kind of unusual.
colors on the
there
#66
And what. . do you see. .... what kinds of markings are they?
#1
Just numbers.
#66
On the submarines, where are these numbers written?
..
the front
right
SAil
#1
They're on. . - flat top like corner of the.
.... (not audibley
looking from the sides.
They're small
..
. very small letters.
#66
What color are they?
#1
The color of the numbers .... is white. White on black.
diferent
#66
How many numbers .. how many digits .... how many numbers
1
are there?
#1
Four digits.
different
#66
Four digit numbers.
Are there any letters?
#1
NO.
No letters.
+37
#66
Read me the numbers.
#1
2. . and .. uh .. 5 .. 9 and a 1. I am not sure about the 9s.
That second 9.
#66
Do the other submarines have numbers?
#1
Uh .. yes. They have numbers. I see .. uh .. no numbers
on the little submarine. Wait a minute .. that doesn't
.. I don't know.
I see a smaller submarine but I am not
sure where
see it.
Three, seven is the first two
numbers on(not audible)
I think the next number is
This
four and it's either an eight or a zero on the end.
10
SECRET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000(08/07 : CIA RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
#1
I can't see the rest of the numbers
#66
OK. Describe these conning tower to me.
very thin
# 1
Uh. . they're two levels. . they're gray. . (not audible)
.. in width but they're very wide. Not as wide as
but these are thin Ewide and Not
ours. Our submarines are much larger. . and not very
fairly taip
Very
tall but not as tall as ours. Sort of a. . shaped like
a backward "H" with thick legs.
#66
Stand on the conning tower and look to the aft of the
submarine. Describe the aft portion of the submarine.
# 1
Can't see it.
#66
Tell me why you can't see it.
#1
It's .. a .. it's covered with water. I only see the tubes.
#66
Tell me about the tubes.
#1
They're .. a .. it's like they're, all uncovered. . all. . the
they're conted
plating is gone and. . canning. . and .. they're being removed ..
being removed.
#66
How many of them are there?
#1
I see twelve, twelve tubes. Twelve, ten or twelve.
I can't see the left tube right. There's a. . two that
really look different.
last two very very clear
#66
How are they different?
do' appear to uhhh.
#1
They're very small, very small.
They go .. . the pier ..
They have the same functions as the others. They're
just different, different size. I don't know why they're
different, but they're different.
facturme ---
#66
OK. I have a question for you now. A peculiar question.
Are you still in 1980?
#1
Yes.
#66
Alright.
What time of day is it that you're looking at
these?
11
CCCDCT
Approved For Release 2006/00/07.YOIA-ROP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2006/08/07 : CV-RTID06 00788R000100120001-8
OLUICT
ah ah ah ..
#1
Uh. . uh .. looking .. looking at .. a .. having trouble with
the time.
er.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
01
16 Don't worry about the time
#1
Do you .do you want the time there?
#66
I want to know if it's a normal time of activity. Do
you see people doing things?
#1
Yes.
0
#66
Alright.
it's
#66 DEright #0 1
# 1
It's. . it's early afternoon there, but there's somethinguh-
. . you asked me that. .. there's something wrong with this
.
my time.
Theye time is afternoon.
Idon't
#66
That's fine.
That's what I was interested in, is if it.
was a working time there, and you say yes, there are
people doing things there. Now, turn around now and face
forward and describe the forward part of the submarine.
#1
There's a. . there's a .. raised area ..... above the water,
It goes from maybe. . uh .. 75 feet and the rest is under the
water.
There's a. . there's a hatch, a little hatch. . two ..
two hatches in the .. in the raised portion.
#66
Alright. Fine. Now I want you to put yourself out back
away from the submarines a little bit and tell me again
how many submarines do you see 1980, January 1980,
<
1 January 1980.
0
#1
See, four.
€
#66
Alright.
Are these four, all of them similar?
#1
Yes.
#66
Alright.
#1
One is different a little bit, but.
... I think it's
just older ..... one is just older.
6 KMy
#66
I want you to relax and concentrate now while I turn
the tape over. Just relax and focus on the target nowe.
I'll ask you another question in a minute.
(tape turned over)
12
Approved For Release 2000 CHRIS500788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SEGRET
feel like my
body's
. bodies moving around.
#1
#66
What is your position of observation?
of the third
and i'm kinda
#1
Uh .. I'm on the conning tower .A .submarine
laying
(not audible) ... on my left side.
#66
Alright.
Now, stand down on the foredeck of the
submarine, where the hatch is.
#1
Which hatch? The little one or the big one.
to1 0 Kay
#66
The big one. Now, from the submarine, look up.
What is above you?
#1
Rows of lights. Two kinds of lights.
I feel.
feel like ..... a .... one light, type. Feel heat from
one of the lights.
* a light type
#66
And further up
. ..
uni
#1
Girters. Construction girters.
#66
Move up to the girters.
Now looking back down,
describe the area from that perspective.
PAUSE
#1
Uh ..... looking down on three big bays there's a.
....
#66
How high are you?
#1
Maybe 100 feet ... no not that high ..... 55 or 60 feet.
#66
Are you on the inside or outside?
# 1
I'm inside.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
Tell me about the three big bays.
#1
There's four submarines in the two right bays and
there's none in the left bay.
#66
Alright.
What's to the front of the submarines?
#1
Platform.
13
SEGRET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
#66
What's to the rear of the submarines?
#1
wall.
A wall and some doors.
#66
How do I get the submarines out of here?
#1
You open the wall.
+50
#66
Alright. Fine.
This concludes the amount of questions
that I have about this target. This time I'd like to
give you the opportunity 'to say anything that you would
like to say about this target.
PAUSE
#1
I'm a. . I'm having a lot of difficulty with the end of
raak
the building. I .. a .. look,for the submarines on the end
of the building, and I see the building, and no submarines,
and I. . look at the submarines, . , and I look up and I see
a .. a. . different building from the Inside
.". . In size and I know that
that wall is the. . uh. . wall of the building.
#66
Alright.
Fine. I think you've done very well.
I want
you not to be too concerned now about your confusion.
This is why we moved you ahead in time because we believe
this area to be in a state of flux, right now, under
construction and changing. That's why we moved you
ahead in time to when it might be completed or when we
might have a firm situation.
So I don't want you to be
concerned about your confusion.
1ch #07 ml
That
#1
I was asked about a squareI drew on my last drawing
#66
Outside the building area?
#1
Yes.
#66
Alright, " If you would like to explore that at this
time you may do that.
#1
There is a ........ it's some kind of a nav-aid. The
square's a ..... a electronics and a little building in it.
Some kind of a nav-aid.
It ... a. . they, direct shipping
or something there. Some kind of a navigational aid to
that port. That's what the building is. Appears to be
old, though, for some reason or another, Maybe it's a
little out of state. of- the- art .... a little old fashioned,
a
14
SECRET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96.00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
#1
but, that's what it is. And it is a little building,
I think. I thought it was a box, but it's a little
building.
#66
Alright. Are you looking at that ... at that little
building now or are you looking at it in 1 January 1980?
#1
I'm looking at it now.
C
#66
Alright.
#1
That's what it is.
PAUSE
Laky a dupl
#1
That's all I got.
#66
0
Alright. Move your arms and move your legs and sit
up and draw.
66 How do mane xul! PAUSE
are
quese page , what d'el docs
#1
There's a catwalk type thing "down the left side walll
There's a platform that comes out from this wall, goes
all the way across like this. You have to imagine
this wall being here. Then there's another one over
here that comes out. And there's a. . two more catwalks
going like this.
All these catwalks are very long
and this distance in here is very large. And these
go down to the water. That's a wall over here.
Down here on the end there's another wall of some sort.
Over here there's a ... that's tunnel type entrances and
this is the one I was in. I get the feeling, goes in
the building for some reason. There's another one.
And there's a track like things come out of here.
Go in different directions and there's water down
here.
#66
There are three bays, right.
And there are four
submarines, right.
as The boys
it was1.
the iet f. ,
#1
Oh, Yeah. There's a ..... page 2 looking down from the
top there's a .... that's the wall of the building.
And there's two walls to the bay area and there's
a back wall. That's the sea over here.
15
SEGRET
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
going to place
Rt Luket
pauil
' love.
Parce
lets just

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA RDP06-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
#1
And there's a ... two side walls, which are darker. Down
the side walls are catwalks. Platform at the end, two
more catwalks, like this. There's the .... like tunnel
ways, or ramp ways, I guess. Through the wall, and
the submarines are part like this. There's nothing
in this one. They're all pointed this way. Those
first in the bay, they're working on this one
...
.. and there's something different about this
one.
It's an older one.
I don't know how to explain
that, just that it's an older sub.
... and there's a lot less water in these bays.
In
January of 1980 which is this.
then there is
in the bays here
are the bayor in
the present
day
#66
You never saw the bays in the present time./ It was only
after I sent you to 1980 that you saw the bays.
yeah well, okay
#1
.Yes . .. . OK ..
that's probably an analysis on my
part. But I'll tell you that in 1980 in January
there's less water there for some reason.
(mataudible)
#66: that's fine. The water that you percined when you were
#0/ ....... and a ... sails on the submarines. First off,
the back deck comes out of the water like this.
This is like a ...... let's call this water here.
There's like a rise, thick rise in the sail; there's
a sail and it's shorter than our submarines.
I don't,, any other
time yeah, any wher time
un and un ich
The front deck goes out like this and drops way into
the water. And the submarine is actually much larger.
And, here, it's like rectangle on the side of the
numbers .<
doux
chat
On the sail.
.. there's nothing at all I could see
protruding above the sail, on the sub ..... but this
area back here is where all the plating
was opened
up
( not audible) .... they were working along here.
and they were
7
allure.
There's a very large hatch up front. There's a very
small hatch here. There's no other markings on the
submarine. Very strange. And I don't see any
apparent ornament of any sort.
I can't think of anything else.
little bit
#66
OK. Can you explain about your feeling of nuclear?
1
16
Approved For Release 2000/08/
SEGRETOBROO
there's like tubes
conted this ways
Those are tubes. Yeah.
Imenu was adle
to develop yan to

Approved For Release 2000/08/07: GIA-RDP06-00788R000100120001-8
#1
I was trying to decide whether or not they were
nuclear powered or nuclear armed.
And for some
reason I kept thinking of powered, nuclear powered.
cart tr
But Iget confused when I try to detail nuclear-
anything, but I just know there's something nuclear
Chat
about them.
I think it's probably powered. Some
reason I couldn't say armed. Couldn't say armed
for some reason, or other. I don't understand why
but I just couldn't do that.
As they're just sitting in those bays, they're
just nuclear powered. Let's put it that way.
#66
OK.
You did make a comment that the tubes were empty.
they're
#1
Yes. These tubes were, you know,
heythe
just, like some
kind of tube and sticking up out of these very complex
type thing down here. They're side-by -side, couple
of 'em are sticking out further than a couple of the
others. Some hadn't been touched at all, and they, they were
were extracting 'em this way. And the ones they
were putting in, they were doing some kind of modification
down in here, and they were, they were just putting in .
... it seemed like they were opening 'em larger, you
know, making 'em larger, and there was kind'a design
difference on the tube for some reason.
of a
#66
What about these tubes that were different?
it
# 1
Oh !
That, in the row of ten or twelve that may be
that there's 10 that look like, 12 that don't. Back
here there's two small tubes. And they're real small
and there. . a. . there straight up and down and they're
very short .. and I'm not .... these are different.
/I
You
But,
But,
you know
don't know what those are. They're different.
know they're entirely different from the big ones
I ... I get a strong feeling that functionally they're very
different as well. They're there for something .....
I don't know what it is ..... these cannoling like this.
in there that
You know, I get a feeling almost/the cant in these tubes
might be the way they have to be now but not the way they
had to be before, you know. Like that might be part of
modification.
#66
The fact that they're planted now might
Le
-
17
#01:
Approved For Release 2000/0 2 /TEST-007 68F

Approved For Release 2000109 97 ATA:5DE96-00788R000100120001-8
yeah and
#1
I'm not looking at any part of the submarine and
they could very well be even ..... you know .....
some other severe modifications to it somewhere.
You know, like a .... double the width or something.
I don't know. But I almost get a sensation like
this section of the submarine in its entirety is
being modified or changed .... that I put in brackets
here. It's like that whole thing ..... I mean super-
structure and all has been changed. But, I might be
wrong. That might be analytic. I just get that
feeling.
Gay . now,
#66 Oh I have a question I wanted to ask you before ..
...
that even this morning the question came up. .. . something
about short submarines and long submarines and then
this afternoon again there's
seems to be concern about
short submarines and long submarines. Will you kind of
think about that for a minute?
if ité u
#1
no I don't know. Maybe it's my perspective of the larger
submarine.
Maybe looking down 1 might get the impression
of a small submarine because a lot of it is hidden in
the water, and, side view I'm seeing the entire thing.
I don't know if it's that.
Yeni somewhere in the area of
this building, they're not building a like version of
Boulder
this submarine only a smaller variety. I just get.
I'm getting flashes of a more compact submarine.
Essentially the same design but a more compact model so
to speak.
Sort of like a pocket battleship, you know.
#66
OK.
furt,
#1
A battleship, but nevertheless a smaller version.
This is a good profile signal.
It's definitely what
it looks like.
submarine un this
#66
OK.
How do you feel about this session?
#1
I feel real good .. I was getting a real strange
sensation about the very end, like my whole body was
rolling over on the couch here, but .... I don't know
if that was nerve reaction from my body ... laying so
long in one position or not ...... I was definitely
getting strong feeling that I wastrolling.
ha, ha
#66
trything you want to add?
18
66 that feeds if there.
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
SECRET
ULUIT
#66
Alright.
#1
flat roof.
Large gray square.
#66
OK.
That's fine.
Move out into the large gray square
and look back at the end of the building.
#1
See opening .. tunnel like. . square opening.
....
#66
Square opening? Alright.
+10
#66
Study this opening very carefully. (Pause)
Describe
in detail this opening.
#1
... Uh .. it's got a .. it's like a .. some kind of catwalks on
both sides of the opening.
#66
How high?
PAUSE
#1
Half-way.
(not audible)
..
looks a big warf.
#66
What makes you say that?
# 1
There's a .. water and .. water and catwalks going out to
the water.
#66
Alright.
And that's on the end of the building hum ?:
#1
On the end of the concrete building.
#66
Alright.
Fine.
That's very good.
That's very good.
Describe your position of observation as you see this.
#1
Huh ... staying in water ... staying in ice that's what I'm
staying in.
.
#66
Alright. Now, very slowly, how far .. first of all. . how
far are you from the building, as you see this?
#1
Uh .. 300 feet.
#66
Alright. Move 100 feet from the building and tell me
.. move up so you are 100 feet from the building.
3
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CMA RDP96-00788R000100120001-8

SG1A
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8
Next 2 Page(s) In Document Exempt
Approved For Release 2000/08/07 : CIA-RDP96-00788R000100120001-8