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IAFM-OPS-HU-SA
25 Sep 79
SUBJECT :
Minutes of DOD GRILL FLAME Committee Meeting
DT
1.
Meeting was held in DIA Conference Room, 0930 hours,
25 September 1979.
ATTENDEES: See ENclosure 1.
2.
Those in attendance were:
Dale Graff
SG11
LTC Watt
MAJ Stoner
SG1J
SG11
CIA
Dr. Vorona
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Billy
Charlie
SG1J
1.
distributed copies of the minutes of the
12 July 79 DOD Grill Flame Committee Meeting. He asked for
corrections or changes to the minutes.
2. Dale Graff - Have validated ICR's with me (copies) to
give to each person present.
SG1J
3.
Dale and
are to meet with
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SG1

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and she is interested in finding out what we need in the area
of collection.
SG11
Reference Item 20 - add right/left hemisphere - is this
related.
SG11
BILLY :
She controls
who gets what requirement where.
STONER:
Which researchers do they
talk to.
SG1
A
SG11
SG1J
SG11
SG11
Dale and
will develop this between now and whatever
after we have meeting with
- Send requirements through normal channels with
information copy to me.
SG1J
- Let minutes stand.
SG11
STONER: Re #12.
indicated that he had sent a couple copies
over or whatever office of the CIA was supposed to send office.
SG11
has a copy.
has not seen.
SG1J
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SG1J
OLD BUSINESS: (Asked for by
DR. VORONA - There's another review panel has been set up
at Secretary Brown's request. DOD Advisory Board, Chairman
Mansford Gale of the Army. Apparently they have been set up
to provide another scientific and overview to give the Under
Secretary of the Army a warmer feeling regarding this subject.
Have already made rounds to SRI, etc. Vorona invited to talk to Group,
26 Sep, 1000 hours - informal.
Vorona met Gale a few weeks ago. Gale had selection of the group.
One psychiatrist, scientists, engineers, mathameticians, Jesse
Orlansky will be on this committee.
VORONA suspects this committee to get together with each and every
organization to look into particular involvements in the matter.
CHARLIE - They came to MICOM. Billy and I gave review. Orlansky
was in the group. They understood the program but disagreed on
protocol. Yet, offered no suggestions.
SGFOIA3
STONER: I am a member of that Group, as an advisor. There are
nine members.
Gale is the Chairman. Dr. Halloway 06 Scientist
Halloway has background in this.
Dr. Douglas Tang, Army Res Int Bio Statistician
Dr. Rich Montgomery - Engineer R&A California
Cartwright - Navy, China Lake (well balanced person) .
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MG (Mr. ) Laddie Stahl (earthy sort of guy)
Dr. Orlansky, Jesse (fine old gent to have a beer with)
Dr. Davis and Laberge proposed to have:
Dr. Orlansky
Dr. Ray Hyman
Dr. Snyder
Stoner and his General scrubbed Hyman.
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The Evaluation Group visited Ord and SRI - three days.
SG1J
- Hal was very unhappy with Evaluation Team Meeting.
Seemed to want to pick SRI apart.
Puthoff has written a letter
to Gale regarding coming out to SRI for one thing and doing
something else. (Stoner has a copy of this letter) .
Tang and (?) succeeded in getting SRI to come up with better
statistics.
TEAM
They visited Redstone (another battle).
Visited AMSAA. Wayne Copes handled situation well.
Mr. Gale assigned each team member to write a particular
report - for example, PK protocol. All of these reports will
make up the final report by the team.
STONER:
Snyder is an excellent consultant.
VORONA - Will this committee/team go on forever?
STONER:
Don't know - hope 10 months will be all.
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VORONO told Dale to alert General Brown that Ruth Davis -
No, Voono will alert General Brown.
(re visit to AF)
STONER:
Team to INSCOM Thursday and AMSAA on Friday.
Suspect at the end of this month, Team will talk to Air Force.
VORONO - Professor Wheeler refuses to look at evidence.
STONER believes committee end result will be to proceed.
STONER the committee to investigate paranormal activities -
several members have resigned.
STONER: visited with Gale to Dr. John, Princeton and Dr. Lucky,
Bell Labs - revealed only an interest ..
VORONO - What's Johns status!
STONER:
Johns has a program and will succeed.
He has 100, 000dollar
Budget. He has assistant part time psychic and sophisticated
type experiment.
VORONO - He's not getting into investigative business.
STONER will give trip report re Johns visit to Vorono on their
meeting (Stoner's report to his General).
STONER: Johns has a$5,000 generator.
He has been criticized
by his peers in the University. Johns appealed to the President
often for his work. He also answers to an overview Committee
within the University.
Johns says SRI's protocol is not good.
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STONER: Dr. Lucky, Bell Labs visit: SRI is sophmoric, not good
scientific acts - repeat same things over and over. This thing
needs to come out in the open for peer review.
Lucky talked to Targ and Puthoff and suggested to them that they
bring critics in to watch tests. Let Martin Garner in to
cirticize. Targ and Puthoff refused critics.
SG11
- agrees they ought to do this. However, need a dis-
interested witness.
VORONO - Suggested to Bob Dailey that he propose to Ruth Davis
that this be put under National Scientific Foundation. She rejected
and said No.
SG11
- Did the members of this group sign a form that they would
not expose to newspapers:
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STONER:
Yes, they all signed a security oath. They
understand the security of it.
SG11
VORONO and
will get together to prepare for meeting
on 26 Sep.
SG11
- Synder came up with a protocol - not sure we
can apply it.
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SG11
- was this protocol discussed with Johns or Lucky?
STONER: Only ones to see Lucky and Johns were Gale, Stoner
and the guy from NSA.
SG11
VORONA - CIA had a contract
to look into protocols.
SRI's was supposed to be the best.
WATT - would like to have a copy of the protocol.
Stoner will
send him one.
SG11
- CIA contractor monitors criticized SRI.
DALE - when good viewers come to SRI, other things are dropped.
Informal stage mainly for viewer to practice to get used to -
a warm up is necessary.
SG11
- Puthoff and Targ lump everything together (warm
up and actual session) .
Helter Skelter approach of Puthoff and
Targ is due to lack of funds (getting a good viewer - Swann) .
SG1J
SG1J
FINANCING
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Congressman Rose had erroneous impressions
of funding that DOD had to support SRI in this field.
Dr. Vorono
testified in front of Rose's committee and straightened this out.
VORONO - Please notify me or
as to any changes in funding
so Vorono can post Cong Rose.
Army may not get FY 81 funds.
$150,000 projected.
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STONER:
No change in FY 81 funds.
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STONER :
Who will keep Rose informed, Ruth Davis?
General Ty wrote a letter to say Vorono will keep Rose informed.
CHARLIE:
119 K will go to SRI. In the second phase of contract
with SRI.
Our in house R&D Programis 115K.
STONER - AMSAA doesn't seem to have any problem obtaining
funds for their program.
STONER will check on funding profile and let Vorono know.
DALE: Had written an update of collection requirements. Have
copies of CRIs now for everyone.
STONER wants to suggest amendments.
Collection requirements - general guidelines. This is not the only
way to get specifics into the field.
STONER: Comment by collectors - add to DAO's, add FSTC on Army
side, Japan/Europe, INSCOM Det A O E.
DALE:
Final distribution will include all those.
DALE;
Summary of collection effort of last summer.
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DALE REPORT:
Russians are looking for gifted children in psychic abilities
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(Moscow) .
RADECT.
Moscow/Lenigrad - Flashing Light Experiment.
Radect says there was correlation.
Radeck is Czeckosilvokian.
Attended a session in Madison, Wisconsin where two boys from
Japan with an interpreter attempted images on photographic film
and metal bending. Whole session was far too loose to verify
demonstrations.
There is a video tape on one of the boys. Dale
will try to bring this tape to the next meeting.
n
Japan has offered no official statements re their interest in
RV.
Dale questioned:
Why must Walker's name be linked with Aberdeen
Proving Ground?
The meeting was hosted by Dr. Uphoff.
Dr. Hasted (Professor J. B. Hasted) from England has had 3 or 4
years work with metal softening.
Hans Bender in Germany makes
field trips to Switzerland actually deforms metal and then has
it go back together.
×
National Inquirer provides leads sometimes.
£
Article regarding
a foot doctor in Palo Alto. He and his children have the ability
to bend metal. Dr. Lane (the foot doctor) has offered his children
to SRI for demonstrations.
PA meeting held in San Francisco.
Brain Mind Pamphlet has
small article.
( Dales office is doing informal things. Into diagnostics.
Medical diagonostics.
Unofficial - not FTD.
STONER:
In the library at ARE, there are two books we might
be interested in:
THE DIVINING HAND (regarding dowsing) - Marine Corps
Combat early 70's Vietnam.
Finding tunnels, etc.
SCIENCE AND PSI, by Carol Nash, C. Thomas Pub. 1979 release
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SG1J
Any further business?
SG1|
We are presently trying to define a program.
Proceeding
cautiously. Program with $70,000 contract with SRI.
We're
concerned with Evaluation and Protocols. Qualifications sensor.
Vocabulary. Targets - keep statistics and evaluations separate.
Would like a more formal (written) pact with SRI.
We have a six
month effort to start.
Want to get an Evaluation Plan.
SG11
STONER:
Suggested to
that Johns (Princeton) as the person
to write the Evaluation.
SG11
Need:
Final Security Guide (especially for contractor)
Protocols Document
(Now using INSCOM draft guide prepared by AMSAA)
Security Classification Guide
WATT:
Committee was aksed for comments four months ago re Security
Classification Guide.
Comments were to be provided to John
Kramar of AMSAA.
CHARLIE :
Bill Johnson and his security people are working on
it tied with DIA.
STONER:
will talk to Pattakos regarding security profile.
CHARLIE:
will have Bill Johnson call Stoner and explain his
work regarding security.
SG11
- The Army's Evaluation from the Surgeon General - if we
come up with more stringent protocol, will we be covered.
SG1J
It's now 1150, do you want to keep going.
BILLY: Yes, keep going.
SG11
SG11
will use SRI remote viewers.
SRI invites contract monitors to RV.
was not aware of the's.
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SG1J
- ADMIN NOTES :
SG1J
1.
Watt will send minutes to
2.
Second Thursday of odd numbered month our scheduled meetings.
8 Nov 79 will be next meeting, 0930, DIA Conference Room.
3.
Will hold meetings here (DIA) until there are other proposals.
4.
Asked for suggested comments for the next meeting.
SG1J
STONER:
Security.
If you have something to discuss at next meeting get
these to him a month prior to meeting so he can put out an agenda.
WATT: Concerned that SRI does things in an awkward manner.
They use whatever resources they have available. They used
one of our people who just happened to be there.
Security and SRI - They tasked one of our viewers over the
telephone.
SRI has tremendous telephone security problems.
WATT :
Is there anyway this committee can get a secure telephone
line at SRI.
CHARLIE:
There's a daycom at Mountain View.
Suggested WATT give SRI a security briefing and have
it reviewed every 2 months.
STONER:
said just call them and say don't do it again.
CHARLIE:
We tried for a secure phone before at SRI.
£
Didn't work
out. Its only a 10-15 minute drive from SRI to Mountain View.
WATT:
Gale Committee visits his office Thursday, 27 Sep - may
be out of a job Friday.
CHARLIE:
Ouf of the group, Gale was the most reasonable.
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BILLY: PK program still in equipment building stage.
Phase II
early November.
Protocols are still in abeyance. COL Busher
of Fort Detrick hasn't decided yet.
STONER:
Cong Rose will be DOD Representative on Panel.
Cryptanalysts - related to chemistry of the brain. We
are looking for people who can look inside of restricted spaces.
Also, ones who can read a document or a message.
SG11
SG11
Suggested when calling SRI to use a pay telephone. This
is more secure.
SG1J
Adjourn meeting for today (1220 hours) .
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25 SEPT 79
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NAME
ORGANIZATION
TELE #
SG11
-
Scott, W
ATT
HW INSCOM
(AV) 923-7829
DALE GRÄFF
FTD/TQTR
(AV) 287-6351
Bill Stoner
OACSIPDAMI-ISH
(AV) 225-5048
SG1J
Bill Jenkins
U. S. Army Micom
(AV) 746-7279
SG1
SG11 CHARLES CARTER
MIA
AV 746- 3500
A
USA
DIA/DI
CIA/DDA
JACK VORONA
DIA/DI
-
SG11
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