CIA-RDP96-00788R001900670002-8

CCCDCT
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WORKING PAPER
TRANSCRIPT
HU-1085/8406/01
#66:
This will be a CENTER LANE Interview for 0900 hours
2 May 1984.
Following is a pre-interview briefing.
I
want to show you some pictures that you've seen
before, here of an area that you've described
previously.
#01:
Oh, yeah, the junk room.
#66:
Junk room, okay. Now, what we want to do today is
we want to go back to the junk room in the same
during the same time that we were there before and
that
would be on th 15th of March 1984, between
midnight and 3:00 o'clock in the morning.
Now,
there is certain traffic that we know that goes into
that room.
People come in there to do things that
we know about.
The situation is by what doors do
they gain access to those rooms.
Now, one of those
pictures has a door in it.
#01:
Two of them.
That's the same door is it not?
#66:
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#01:
No, and a door there.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
And you get a door there.
#66:
Okay, the door in picture is actually to a little
vault there, inside there.
#01:
Okay .
#66:
So it's not an entrance to the area.
#01:
Oh, I see, okay.
#66:
And the door in picture #14 --
#01:
14 --
#66:
-- picture #14 is not a secure door, it's just like a
hallway door --
#01:
-- A door going out in the hall.
#66:
Okay .
But that whole area is accessible by several
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ways, the area in general, right?
#01:
Okay.
#66:
And so what we want to do is we want you to go
through each of the people that come into that area
between midnight and 3:00 in the morning on the 15th
of March.
Go through each of the people that enter
that area and describe the route that they take in
getting to that area.
#06:
Okay.
Now they may be the similar route, they may
be different routes.
#01:
#66:
Okay .
Okay, I'll give you a few minutes now to prepare
yourself.
Put the tape recorder
on.
Relax and
concentrate now.
Relax, relax, relax.
Relax and
focus your attention solely and completely on the
room in the photograph I've shown you and describe
the activities of 15 March 1984, 15 March 1984.
#01:
I got ah .. guy in a .... black suit with an overcoat.
He's getting off an elevator.
. ..
.I
see him
walking up a short flight of steps,
turning
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right and going through a door, then going through
another doorway where the door is already open into
that room.
.
.
. He's got a clip board and he's
checking things off.
. Cleaning on top of the
cabinets of some kind of papers.
. He doing a
ah ... inventory.
Inventory of safe in the corner
Now he is leaving.
He's going out
and opening it.
a different way, he's going through the other room
in the front.
Seems to be going from room to room.
they're
. .
. Now,
he's
met somebody
talking.
..
They're leaving that room together,
making a right turn and walking down a short hallway
to a .... door and they're going through that door,
. .
and then in a larger room, feels like it's
outside the area though.
And then they're looking
at a door, it's a door, .
talking and
the
guy in the black is leaving and the, the other guy
through the door and back to the other room. He's
typing something on a paper.
Sitting at a desk
that's shaped in a "L" shape.
And there's
the other guy's ah.
.
..
I don't know if this guy's
before or after the others.
Having trouble
with this, it's like ah .... feel like I'm looking at
him upright, but then I'm feeling like I'm looking
down on him.
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#66:
Take a moment to focus, I will wait.
#01:
Get impression like he's
on all fours, with his upper torso in a box and a
. looks like he's crawling into something or
crawling out of something.
.He's wearing dark
brown coveralls and he's standing up and it's like a
storage area or something.
He's brushing his
hands off and he's .... looking around. Light's very
dim and he's walking about, ... ten paces straight
ahead, turns to the right.
..
.. . The guy's in a
hallway after he makes his right, he's in a hall.
And he turns right into another area and on his
immediate right is a door and he goes through that
door
... and the door's already open, it's like
blocked open.
#66:
#01:
Describe like blocked open.
... Um .. impression of something
wedged, cardboard
wedge is under the edge, ... something to do with
ventilation, heat or .. cooling or some, something to
do with air circulation.
#66:
I don't understand (mumble) .
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#01:
Um .. . . ah.
. . The door's open, it's locked, but
this thing, cardboard to keep it open.
#66:
Okay.
Go on.
#01:
And he makes a left and then he's in the room, that
same room.
#66:
He goes through some door that has got a piece of
cardboard in it to hold it open and after he goes
through that door, he's in the room in question?
#01:
Um .. yes, but he makes a left when he does it.
#66:
Okay .
Now, is this the same door that the other
people came into?
#01:
Ah .... yeah, there's ah ... except this guy came from
the .. 180 direction of the other man, some kind of a
small square that he ... was in.
Ah ... I-
#66:
Okay, do I understand that you said he approached
the room area from the opposite direction of the
other two?
#01:
Ah, yes.
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#66:
And as he approached that, he went, crawled through
a small square something.
#01:
He either crawled into it or out of it, I, it's hard
to tell.
#66:
Okay.
But his approach to the room area was from
the opposite side of the room?
#01:
yes.
#66:
All right.
Now, describe in as much detail as you
can the door with the cardboard, things associated
around it, the walls.
#01:
Just a minute.
#66:
I'll will wait.
#01:
Ah .. I think it opens outward
into open air.
Has a
slanted roof as you're
standing facing
it.
Ah ... it's
like
(mumble)
standing two steps down, on the edge of the door and
it's got a slanted roof over the head.
There's ah ..
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#66:
Okay, as you approach the door, you are at a lower
level than the door, is that what you mean?
#01:
It's like, yeah, if you go up some steps to it.
#66:
#01:
All right.
And it pushes out with a bar, like a breaker bar.
Metal like, light color or ah, very pale green or
grayish green color.
It ah ... stand in front of it,
I feel like I'm very close to a wall on both sides.
There's a metal conduit running across the ceiling
to the top edge of the door and down the left side
of the door.
..... There's a light switch to the
right, door opens from the left to right, (mumble)
out.
#66:
Okay.
It pushes to an area that you feel is outside
like?
#01:
Is out, outside, but it feels like it's covered in
some way.
#66:
Okay .
You have to make two steps up to the door, I'm not
#01:
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sure about the wall on the right, but it's very
close to the wall on the left.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
It's got a window.
#66:
The wall to the left has a window like thing in it?
#01:
That's correct.
#66:
Okay.
Then you get more of an outside feeling when
you go through the door from the room of interest,
out this door, you get an outside feeling when you
go there, you get a step feeling, and you get a
slanted ceiling or roof feeling.
#01:
Yes, like an angle in the roof.
#66:
All right.
#01:
Something covering it, it's outside, but there's
something covering it.
#66:
All right.
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#01:
I
got a feeling of ah. .. ah ...
narrowness or a
closeness.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
Feels like it just keeps getting more narrow.
#66:
The closed in narrow, more confining feeling?
#01:
Yes.
#66:
Okay .
I want to change your focus now a little bit.
#01:
Okay .
#66:
You said on this door that there was a conduit on
the top of the door leading down the left side?
#01:
Um, um.
Where does it go on the top of the door?
#66:
#01:
Goes to a gun metal gray box that's
ah ... just 7 inches wide, 4 high high, 3 inches deep.
#66:
What do you mean it goes to it?
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#01:
It's mounted on the wall.
#66:
Okay .
Describe what you mean by the cable, the
conduit goes to this box.
#01:
Just to the box that's mounted on the wall.
#66:
It goes to the box mounted on the wall.
Okay.
Go
inside the conduit and describe what's inside the
conduit.
#01:
Ah ...... two sets of two pair of wires.
#66:
Go
down the wires towards the box mounted and
describe.
#01:
I get ah .... see a roll of wire or it's all
coiled up in a corner and there's ah. . little green
board with a only ah, what I see, at some (mumble).
#66:
Okay .
On the wires leading to the box, do a
continuity check.
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#01:
.It's ah ... it continual
. current.
There's
always continual current here, .
...
just
slips
through.
#66:
Do a continuity check on all the combinations of the
wires leading.
#01:
Not
always
continual,
there's
interruptions.
#66:
Okay. Let's change your perspective now. Get out
of the box and face the door with the cardboard in
it.
#01:
Okay .
#66:
Okay,
now
grab on to the piece of cardboard and
follow it til, 'til it originated there.
Tell me
how, when and who put it there.
#01:
The guy that sits at the desk for the
day.
Ah ... it's been done many times, something to
do with false light or something.
(mumble) I get a
picture of a metal box with a
light blinking,
they're putting the cardboard there stops the light
from blinking.
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#66:
Okay.
I don't understand what you mean by the guy
at the desk.
#01:
Same guy earlier that typed the paper, sitting at a
"L" shaped in a room, outside the room of interest.
#66:
All right, I understand. If I have understood you
correctly, the guy who sits at the "L" shaped desk,
typed on the forms, he puts this piece of cardboard
in there to stop a flashing light?
#01:
Um, um.
#66:
And it's the usual thing, that's the way he gets rid
of the light?
#01:
Yes, that's correct.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
He and others, he's not the only one, there's other
people.
#66:
Okay, let's go back to the door and the door with
the conduit and the little box above the door.
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Facing the box direct on, ask yourself, ask of
yourself of your greater knowledge,
is there
anything amiss about the box?
#01:
Ah. . sometimes
it
doesn't and
sometimes it does.
I only see ah.
. some kind of a
ah ... I don't know, it has to do with black thing, a
black attachment, goes on the other side of the door
on the wall.
I can't tell if it's there all the
time or if it is there when it's not working or if
it's there when it's working.
#66:
If I understand then, when you ask yourself the
question, is there anything amiss about the box, you
don't see anything particularly wrong with the box,
but you find that it doesn't work from time to time
and that maybe associated with something on the
other side of the door.
#01:
#66:
That's correct.
I see a square of black.
Okay. I have no further questions about the area,
but I would like you to take a few minutes now to
explore beyond the confines of my questions and to
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review in your mind, your perceptions where I will
now ask you to draw a simple floor diagram where
these doors are. I will wait while you do this.
#01:
Okay .
#66:
Okay, if you'll wait just a minute, I want to get
some directions from the control room here. Just
speak up and say again. Okay. First of all, do you
have anything else to report on your own exploration?
#01:
No, I'm just having a little difficulty holding this
picture very much longer.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
Where everything is.
#66:
Okay. I want to try to do after a little bit more
information --
#01:
There's ah .... there is one thing.
#66:
Okay .
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#01:
I can't identify it with anything, but I get a
feeling of walking across like bridge wire or arch
like and getting to the building, like a tight rope
walk or walking along something narrow.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
You know, just a flash picture of that.
#66:
Okay .
Now, this man who, in the brown coverall
suit, came through the door that had the cardboard?
#01:
Ummm, I didn't say that.
#66:
Well, see if you can't straighten me out.
#01:
He came from the opposite side of the area, he came
from way the other side.
#66:
Okay .
I understood you to say that this door that
was open that had the cardboard stuck in it, was the
door that the man with the brown coveralls came
through?
#01:
No, I not sure.
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#66:
Okay .
#01:
First place, first place, I have this male that's
crawling through something.
#66:
That's correct.
#01:
#66:
Or in something.
Okay. I think that we better end here because you
are obviously are losing the perceptions you've had
of the target and before we lose the floor plan and
have you mix it all up, I want to end here, so you
can sketch it for me.
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DRAWING EXPLANATION
Hu-1085/8406/01
#01:
Okay.
On the drawing I drew the location of the
elevators where the first man came up a set of, then
went to the left, went up a set steps, went through
an entry door. And if you followed the dotted line,
it's the path he took, 'til he talked to the second
man denoted by a "2". That's the same guy that was
typing the paper. He and the second guy came out in
this dimly lit area, this other room and went around
and stopped discussed two doorways and the second
doorway is the one I talked about. And the second
guy went back in his room and the other guy left by
the same way he came in.
Now the path of the second
guy is denoted by dots.
And I put a star on the
drawing where I believe the crawl area to be,
because that's where I saw the guy, like he was
either crawling into or crawling out of something.
And this third guy in the coveralls then went into,
and what I should do is ah --
#66:
Okay, now, you said before that the crawl area that
you indicated may or may not be in the drawing
itself.
#01:
Yeah, I wanted to finish what
I was saying first.
After the crawl area then he went to the room in the
pictures.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
Okay?
Now that's as far as I had him going any
where. But then I had him outside the door of
interest. Now, I have a 50, 50 feel that that's
where I put the little star, is actually where the
crawl way area is.
#66:
Um, um.
#01:
If it's not there, then it's not on this picture,
it's somewhere else.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
But I also, I have him in a crawl way and then in
the room in the pictures, but then I have him
outside the door, but I can't honestly put him from
one place to the other through the areas.
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#66:
Let me --
#01:
It's like he went to two places, but not through the
areas of interest.
#66:
Okay, let me ah, let me see if I understand.
You
have three separate and distinct images about where
this guy is. One image relates to crawling through
something, a separate image in going through the
door which we spent so much time discussing and the
third is in the room in the photographs I've shown
you.
£
Are those to be separate?
#01:
That's correct.
That's correct.
#66:
Okay.
And how and why and the in betweens of those
are --
#01:
-- Beats the hell out of me. So.
#66:
Okay, what more can you tell me about this door down
here that you asterisks?
1
#01:
Just that sometimes this box works and sometimes it
don't and I think it has to do with modification or
something to reduce a blinking light or something
like that, I don't know.
#66:
Okay .
#01:
That's it.
#66:
Okay, fine.
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oCont+

2
O
ENTRY OF FIRST MAN
SECOND MANS LOCATION
PATH OF FIRST MAN
PATH OF SECOND MAN
(
BELIEVE THIS IS THE
CRAWL AREA (OR) IT
IS NOT ON THIS DRAWING
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ENTRY
TYPES PAPER
-
O ENTRY
2
( ROOM IN)
PICTURES)
A
1
(ELEVATORS)
DIM LIGHT
ARGA
DOOR
THIRD
MAN
AROUND
DOOR
DISCUSSED.
STEPS
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