CIA-RDP96-00788R001900660001-0

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TRANSCRIPT
HU-1075/8406/01
#66 :
This will be a CENTER LANE Interview for 0900 hours
3 April 1984. This is the pre-session briefing.
Okay, I have some pictures to show you here.
First
of all, this is a, the work this morning is an
event style senario.
I know what the inside of
this building looks like and so forth and so on.
So the problem isn't for you
to describe the
inside, although I may ask you a few things so we
can
orient.
The problem
is
an
event
style
senario.
And by that, I mean that it's
like
a
jigsaw puzzle of events.
#01:
Okay.
#66:
There are some events that we know about and so I
will be able to understand when you're talking to
me about certain things, but there are some other
possible events that we don't know about and we
need to check on, so it's an event style senario.
To that effect, I'm going to give you a very
specific, in terms of hours and date and you will
be targeting on the building in the photograph at
that specific hour and time. Because we don't want
the events of 1947 or we don't want the events of
the year 2000, we want the events of that specific
hour.
#01:
Um, um.
#66 :
Now, if you'll
look
at
this
photograph,
I have
arranged it
so that that
is
the front of the
building and when you turn
the page over you see
the back of the building.
#01:
That is the back of the building.
#66 :
Yes.
#01:
Okay.
#66 :
Okay.
Now I want to
point out to you, as you look
at it, that the building has an attic to it and
than the floor below the attic where the top most,
what we would call the occuppied floor, is the 10th
floor.
#01:
That's this floor.
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.
#66:
Um, um.
10, the attic and than the 10th floor, and
than 9, 8, 7, 6 and on down, rather than trying to
count from the bottom.
The top is the attic and
than the first occuppied floor is 10.
Okay?
#01:
Um, um.
#66 :
The main entrance is about in the middle of that
building there.
#01:
Um, um.
#66:
The back of course is --
#01:
Okay.
#66:
Okay. So we're looking at that building and I will
give you a very specific time and hour.
Okay?
#01:
Okay.
#66 :
You may hold on to that picture. And we're going
to put the tape recorder on pause for a moment.
Continue now to relax and concentrate and as you
are deeper and deeper relaxed, begin to focus your
attention, mind your awareness on the building in
the photograph I've shown you,
focusing your
attention
solely and completely, the hours
of
midnight to 3:00 in the morning, 15 March 1984, at
the building, midnight to 3:00 in the morning on 15
March 1984 and describe your perceptions to me.
#01:
I
don't see much activity
at
this, see a few
people, somebody cleaning carpets,
most push vacuum cleaners.
#66:
Focus solely on midnight to 3:00, midnight to 3:00.
#01:
Someone with a ah ... walking with
a white
oblong
object under their arm, .... in a hallway.
He's kneeling down on their right knee looking
or
peering through a glass
. like peering into a
reflective surface.
#66:
Say again.
#01:
Like peering
a reflective surface, ... square
or screen of some kind.
The right hand is on it
and they're just kind of.
peeking at something
or
doing
something
with
the
right hand.
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The reflections like ah ... back
lights,
ah ..
looks like small spot
lights
over
the
shoulder.
#66:
Okay, if I understand what you said correctly, you
have a person walking down the hallway carrying an
oblong object and he stops and kneels down and
looks at something that ---
#01:
-- Different, different person.
#66 :
You're now on to a different person.
#01:
Ah. . let me start over.
#66 :
All right.
#01:
Got someone cleaning, got someone walking in a hall
with a white oblong rectangular object under their
arm,
right arm.
They're
passing
ah ... doors
recessed in woodwork on left side.
Having another
person in a room kneeling in front of a rectangular
object of metal, plastic, reflective surface.
#66:
All right.
This is the third person?
#01:
Yes.
Peering
into
a
screen or
a
glass
or
something, right hand
is on the object, sensation
of back lights, like spots in ceiling or over his
shoulder.
Specific room has got ah ..... shelves
with. . . neatly
stacked
paper
cardboard
or
something.
. .
Ah .. get an impression this machine
is decorative, but not decorative.
...
#66:
Okay, I need to slow down a minute and get some
particulars.
Let's go back to the person number 2,
where the person walking in the hallway.
#01:
Okay.
#66:
Describe this person, their dress and so forth.
#01:
...
.... Wearing a charcoal
gray suit,
no tie,
recently removed the tie, in any event, ah. . has
coat,
beige
color coat
over
left
arm.
#66:
a
Ah .... caucasian, mustache, 5' 7".
Okay.
Now let's move to the third
person,
the
person
who looks into the reflective surface.
Describe him to me.
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#01:
37, 38 years of age, .. ah .. wrinkly eyes, like
around the outside edges. Ah ... clean shaven, black
hair or very dark brown, probably dark brown or
mixed, ah ... hair's full, covers the edges of the
ears, ... heavy, heavier than normal, heavy set.
#66:
He's dressed?
#01:
Ah. . . . see
a light jacket over ah. . off colored
shirt, dark
pants.
#66 :
Okay.
Now, let's do some movement exercises
in
time, so we get a very specific focus here.
Okay,
thinking now about person number 2
walking down
hall, and person number 3 looking into some sort of
panel and lighting and so forth, I
want the time
window just before this, let's see if there's
anybody else, the time window just before this.
#01:
. Get an impression of
someone dressed
very well,
just see ah .. someone
coming
in a
different kind of entrance, it's like walking down
instead of up, coming down a hall, not removing his
overcoat, leaning to the right into
a
doorway,
ah. . elevator, door opens right
to left,
the
outside. Goes to ... eighth or ninth floor.
...
Puts a key into a metal door of some kind.
Goes in
and makes left into another room, turns overhead
lights on, ..... pulling down on a
handle
or
something and he apparently is putting something in
his desk, taking something else.
And
he leaves the same way he came in,
. . very quick,
very direct.
#66:
Okay,
if I understand what you said now,
a man,
first of
all you said somebody very well
dressed,
then you talked about a man that doesn't
take off
his overcoat, is this the same person.
#01:
All the same person.
#66:
A11
right.
Now,
I
want
you to describe to me,
again, this
person
comes
in
somehow through an
elevator --
#01:
No, he comes in through a different door from the
entry.
#66 :
A different door than the entry.
-
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#01:
It's like
a side door that
goes down the steps
instead up the steps.
#66:
All right and then what happens?
#01:
Then he comes, and then
I
see him
in
the hall,
going down a side hall.
#66:
We kind of
jump
a
little
bit
and your
next
impression is in a hall, all right, go on.
a
#01:
And I move behind him to follow him and he makes
right which is, if he had come in the front
entrance it would be somewhere to the right of the
front entrance.
There's a hall, he's in the hall,
before he gets to the front entrance, he leans
right to enter an
elevator that
opens from the
right to the left to the outside. He enters the
elevator and goes to the eighth or ninth floor, the
eighth floor.
I
next see him entering
a short
hall, inserting a key in a metal door, making a
left as he enters that door, to an office or
something on the left and turns overhead lights
on .
Ah .. goes diagonally across that room.
#66 :
Okay, stop.
Describe the room.
#01:
.. See tables of some kind, higher than normal, see
desk, or not a desk, but a lower, lower table, see
ah .. some kind of equipment to the left, on the
table.
See .... stacks of something, like shelves
stacks
on
table to right.
Keep
getting
an
impression
o f
shelving
or something.
First
inclination is to put equipment on it but I can't.
It's like stacks of something, paper.
Ah ..... It's
very cluttered room, see a map,
. Is
impression
it's not a normally cluttered room, but at this
time it's a cluttered room.
#66:
Okay, now tell me more about this --
#01:
-- Like there's things
left out, things unrolled,
things ... specifically set and laid around and then
what appears to be disorderly, but it's really an
orderly fashion, research type fashion.
#66:
If I worked there, I would know where to go in the
room to find what I wanted, but if it was you, like
you're observing it now, it looks cluttered?
Is
that a correct analogy?
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#01:
Um, yes and no.
Yes
in
that
regard
but
additionally it's like room
use is modified because
of temporary occupancy with other people.
#66:
Okay, there's a flavor of something --
#01:
Overlaid, over, yes.
#66:
All right. Now I want you to regain your focus and
concentration and return to this individual and
tell me more about what he does as he' enters this
room.
#01:
Just a minute.
#66:
Yes, take a moment to regain your concentration.
#01:
.He just goes straight diagonally across the
room
to a ...
high level safe or cabinet, I don't
think it's a safe because he just clips the handle
down
in
a
fashion that it opens.
And .. takes
something from his pocket and puts it in.
#66:
Okay, stop.
Focus on the object.
#01:
It just looks like a ah .... it's like the
size of a book of matches, it looks like a book of
matches, it looks soft, black, there's paper there
though too, I see paper.
#66:
Paper where?
#01:
In his hand, it's like wrapped
around it, it has
something to do with paper.
#66:
Okay. You used some conditional words, like it's
like this and it's like that, let's go back again
and see if we can't get down to the raw data, the
raw perceptions of the elements of this thing.
It
might not make any sense, but maybe we can figure
it out later.
#01:
Okay, just a
minute.
..
. Paper folded, soft,
black plastic, soft,
Smooth,
no corners,
object
size of a book of matches,
...
. thin
copper
wire ...... on left corner of a drawer ..... that's
all I get.
#66 :
Okay.
Now, refocus on the individual and
follow
his activities.
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#01:
He leaves
.. the same way he came in
# 66 :
Okay.
#01:
Very direct, very quick.
#66:
All right, now I have a, I want
to move in time to
a specific area in the building and specific time
to do some verifications.
#01:
Um, um.
#66 :
Okay,
at
1215
hours,
that
15
minutes
after
midnight, on the 9th floor,
scan the 9th floor,
at
15 minutes after midnight, 15 March 84.
#01:
Just
get an impression
of
a meeting
room with
2,
3
people.
. It's like they're
closing things up or closing things
in their hands,
snapping shut briefcases.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
Putting on coats.
#66:
Let's go to a little different time
window then,
let's go to before midnight, 11
o'clock on the
evening previous day, 9th floor scan.
#01:
. Just see a person coming out of a room
and going down a hall and going into another room.
#66:
Describe him.
#01:
Ah, brown hair, sandy color hair, very light brown,
close to 6 feet, ah .. standard build, standard
weight, ah .. expensive watch, ah ... 41, 42 years of
age, ah .. square jaw, .... sleeves rolled, long sleeve
shirt, sleeves rolled up, with his tie, no jacket,
light brown pants,
#66:
Okay.
#01:
Now he goes into the room to talk to or a bigger
guy, ...... mmm .. approximately the same age, maybe a
little
older, heavy, very heavy, .... ah, shorter,
some
gray .. in
his
slightly
darker
hair,
hair ..
Apparently they're, they're working
late, late on something important.
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#66 :
Okay.
I
want
to change your focus now.
My
information
says that, let's
say previous
to
midnight in the very late hours of the night that
there should be, to my best information, is that
was only one person on the 9th floor which should
have been a marine guard, but that, so I don't know
whether or not my information is bad or whether
we're having trouble focusing in a specific time,
Because later in the evening other people did come
into the area, okay.
#01:
. . Mmmm, this ah .. is before the 15th, this is maybe
earlier than that.
1
#66:
Okay.
So on the
15th, between the hours
of
midnight and 3 o'clock, you talked about some very
interesting things going on, but aside from all
that, there was an occurrence, an event, something
happened that caused these other people to come in,
focus on the very night, midnight
to 3 in the
morning on the 15th of March.
See if you can tell
us what it is that happened to cause these other
people to come in.
#01:
I see ah ... see somebody
taking a ... box off
a
table ...
and ah .. clipping
wires in the back .. to do that. It's got sides,
it's got handles in the front.
And they're ah ..
taking it.
But I don't them getting caught or
anything, I just see them taking.
. Now I see it
being discovered missing, cause a door not supposed
to be opened, is opened.
.
.. I
see it's being
removed from a ah. . like a communications area, this
box.
#66:
Okay,
are you saying
that during
this
time,
something was removed?
#01:
Being stolen, yes.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
But I don't see any discovery of a person, I just
see the discovery of the missing object.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
You know, I don't see any alert action, I don't see
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anybody running around chasing people, I just see
someone opening an door and, or finding a door
a
a jar and looking and seeing something missing that
should be there.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
In response to that is everyone coming.
#66 :
Okay, I have no further questions.
I
would like
now to give you just a few minutes of free time to
explore beyond the confines of my questions and see
if there is anything else that we need.
#01:
.Kind of left with an impression
of ... ah ... this
object or
this ... piece of object
that
was
stolen has got
something to do with
something else that's already been stolen, and
I
don't understand how to put that together. ... Like
part of a system of something, ... ah ... necessary to
steal this in order to .... understand or use what
was stolen before.
...
. I don't know, I don't know
why I say that, it's just like.
.. seems to be the
apparent motive.
#66:
Okay, we started out by looking at some particular
activities during this period of time. And you
talked about some people coming in and doing this
and people walking down the hall and looking around
and so forth and so on and people coming in and
going and so forth.
And then I asked you later to
look, particularly, that there was something that
happened here, something of significance that
happened and ask
you to explore the idea
of
something of significance happened.
And if
I
understand what you reported to me is that you say,
someone stole something that had wires clipped to
something.
#01:
Um, um.
#66:
And you've now gone on to say that it was
important
that they steal this because of what, what was your
other ?
#01:
Because it's, it's ... necessary to have this part
or piece to understand of
a primary theft that's
occurred somewhere else or earlier.
#66 :
Okay and you yourself don't quite understand --
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#01:
I don't, it's just, it's like the only reason for
this theft is the support of previous theft of
something far more valuable or important.
I,
I
don't understand, I keep getting very sophisticated
electronic boxes keep jumping in my mind, but I,
they're not things related to what we're working
on, they're things related to a previous theft.
#66 :
All right.
Now --
#01:
I don't understand that.
#66:
Okay.
It's necessary now to focus on this object,
this thing that you perceive as being stolen from
here.
Tell me about that specific thing that you
believe is stolen from here.
#01:
It's black and it's plastic, it has
many, many
holes
in it, has adjustable or sliding pins that
stick through it, sounds like a
ah ... some kind
a .. it's the paper seal or paper slide or something
on one side.
Ah. . .
Key, some
kind of keyhole,
keylock or it's
a special kind of
insert for
screwdriver, tool or something, I keep getting like
a ... custom kind of tool ... that
y ou
stick into it
now and then for some reason ..
. and wires, get
a bunch of wires, I don't know what they mean,
they're just wires, spaghetti.
#66:
Okay.
I believe you said before that, something
about clips or something?
#01:
Yeah, there's ah ... unspecified clips .... I see
something being cut in order get this. And now I'm
not sure if it's the wires or it's a piece of metal
on the side or something.
Something had to be cut
to take this.
#66:
Okay. Now beyond the physical description of what
it's made of and the pieces and things that it's
made of.
Go beyond this description and tell me
what the function does.
#01:
Wait just a minute.
It's
ah ... it per, .. it
performs
an
interface function
that serially encodes or translates something.
£
Get
a
picture
of
a
stream of something,
some
information or data.
I see it being reassembled or
deassembled.
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#66:
All right.
Now when you first told me about this
device, you told that there was something, wires
were clipped and someone stole this.
#01:
That's correct.
366 :
Okay.
I want you
to address a very particular
question and be very careful not to let me suggest
anything to you.
And if you can't deal with
it
because it's suggestions, then let me know.
This
object that you perceive as being stolen from this
room, does it belong in this room, is it
really
part of everything that's there?
#01:
No, it's
ah. . doesn't
belong
there normally.
It's applied to the stuff there,
afterwards.
#66:
All right, now tell me the raw perception, you gave
me some nice concluding statements, but I can tell
that you got that information by looking at some
data, describe that data that you've looked at to
make those conclusive statements.
#01:
Presented first with a picture of many boxes, all
assembled with lines, like a wiring diagram and
presented with
picture of
where this specific
object goes and the wiring diagrams, then perceive
that highlighted all other objects not highlighted
as answer or response to, was it originally there
with everything else? I ... perceive that to mean
no, that's it's aside and beyond or from everything
else that is there.
#66:
All right, then if I
understand your perception,
you let yourself
conceive of everything
that's
there as being a singular unit.
#01:
That's correct.
#66:
And yet this was
highlighted, like marked
with
highlighter pen.
#01:
It wasn't there when I asked the question, what was
there originally and is there now and should be
there.
#66:
I
understand how you were able to answer that
question, very good.
Now, the question is is if
in
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fact this thing that got stolen that night does not
really belong with this, the other things in the
room, how long has it been there?
#01:
. At
least
45
days,
possibly 2 months.
#66:
Okay.
That would be previous to the window of the
15th that you looked at?
#01:
That's correct.
#66:
Okay.
If I understand your perception then that as
best you can understand, it's been there maybe two
months previous to the 15th.
#01:
That's correct.
#66:
All right.
I have one last question for you then.
#01:
Um, um.
#66 :
You found that something may have been stolen from
this area, something that really wasn't supposed to
be there to begin with.
#01:
Um, um
#66 :
And on the 15th, now move to that building in
present time, today, the 3rd of April.
#01:
Ah
okay.
#66 :
Okay.
Now, in this area where this thing
was
stolen, what's happening there now on
the 3rd of
April?
#01:
.I
see it being searched and stripped
. keep
getting an impression of, full of
people looking, and then full of people, not full
of people, rather.
It's only has people at when
people are looking for something, rest of the time
it's empty.
#66:
Do I, in the present time window, I just realized
that maybe because this place is on the other side
f the world that the date 3 April might be a few
hours away in the future for us. But besides that,
am
I understanding that you're saying that this
room is not a normally occuppied room?
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#01:
No,
this
is
a
normally occuppied room, it's
different in that now it's not.
#66:
Okay.
In
the present time window, it's now being
occuppied ?
#01:
That's correct.
# 66 :
Okay.
In looking around yourself in
the present
time window, do you find this peculiar object that
had been previously stolen?
#01:
Holding in the exact present window.
#66:
#01:
. ..
.No, but I .. ah ..... I'm having trouble
this because I see someone putting it down
in
that
with
room.
I don't perceive it there now, but
I
see
someone putting it down in that room.
#66 :
Okay and you're having trouble, I think what you're
telling me, is the idea of it being put down in
that room is there, but you don't find it there
right now.
#01:
That's correct.
#66:
Okay.
Now
I have no further questions about
this
particular
area or the events of the night
in
question.
I do have a series of photographs of
many rooms
in the building that I would like to
show you to see if you recognize any of one of
those rooms.
So at this time I'm going to put the
tape recorder on hold and allow you to regain your
present time awareness.
#66 :
Okay,
these are just interesting things
that ,
looking at picture number 1.
#01:
Okay.
#66:
You might pass them off and then come back, make
yourself a
couple of stacks of interesting and
uninteresting.
#01:
Yeah, um, um, okay.
That one is uninteresting.
#66:
Picture 4 uninteresting.
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#01:
Yeah, these 3 so far, they relate to what
is
going
on.
#66:
Okay.
Picture 4 and 5
are the same thing from
different angles.
#01:
Yeah.
#66:
I've got pictures of a lot of doors which, some of
which are the same doors, some
of which
are
different doors.
#01:
Um, um. Okay.
Okay, picture #8 looks like the
door when the guy came, you know, that
was well
dressed and everything and went straight to, you
know, came through the door and hung a left and
went straight into a room, this is the room that he
went into, door 8.
#66 :
Okay, that looks like that kind of door?
#01:
Yeah.
#66 :
Okay.
We'll set
that one aside.
#01:
And
this is inside that particular
room,
# 9
is
inside the door --
# 66 :
that looks like the one in 8.
#01:
Yeah.
#66:
That's just a blowup of this.
#01:
of this yeah. Okay.
That's uninteresting, I don't
think it has anything to do with that.
#66 :
Okay, do you see anything associated with that?
#01:
Oh, there's the shelves, now I know what all the
garbage is.
#66:
Okay, you have a memory recall then of picture 12.
#01:
I have a memory recall of this.
This is the room
where everything is just piled up all over the
place, that looks like a real mess all
the time.
Remember I said that the room that is cluttered but
not cluttered --
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#66:
Okay you think that refers to picture 12?
#01:
That refers to picture 12, yes.
#66:
Okay.
#01:
Yes, this is in picture 12 as well.
This is in the
same room.
#66:
Picture 13?
#01:
Picture 13 is in the same room.
#66:
Seems the same kind of flavor, okay.
#01:
Yes.
That's exactly the shelf and everything that
I was
seeing.
#66 :
We'll back up a litle more.
#01:
Yep, there''s the maps on the wall, 14 again, same
room, exact room.
Don't have a feel for this, one
way or the other.
#66:
Okay, 15 doesn't --
#01:
It's probably an interior vault door of some kind.
#66:
15 doesn't mean anything to you?
#01:
No, it doesn't mean anything.
That's interesting,
something interesting about, I want
to go back to
see .
#66:
I'm going to let you shuffle through all these
until you get feelings about any other pictures at
all.
#01:
...
This one really rings a bell or something.
#66:
Okay 18 seems be something familiar about it.
#01:
18, but I want to look at the rest of them before
I, and this is co-located with it.
#66 :
Okay.
#01:
That's picture 19 and 18 and picture 20.
These are
all co-located.
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# 66:
These are familiar because of your MOS
of
past
years or --
#01:
Yeah, possibly.
That,
believe it or
not,
is
uninteresting to me.
#66:
21 is uninteresting?
#01:
Yeah, doesn't mean any
to
me.
And
22
is
not
material
to the (mumble).
I'11
keep
that
right
there 23.
#66:
Disregard the guy in the picture, he's one of the
good guys.
#01:
Yeah, okay, looks familiar.
#66:
Okay, we finished the pictures now and I would like
you to go shuffle through them and see how you feel
now that you've had initial impressions, kind of
shuffle through and see how you feel about them.
and again, I might now have the picture of the
particular problem area or it might be here.
#01:
Ah,.
..
..
. Picture 12, 13 and 14 are definitely
the jumble area with the shelves, and the maps and
that sort thing and it's probably the area that was
checked very
heavily by a
bunch
of people
afterwards. Picture 8, 9 and 10 is where the man
who is well dressed went straight to and it could
have been this cabinet, if it's diagonally across
the room and left corner, he went straight to this
cabinet and opened it but he didn't take anything
out.
# 66:
Okay,
this
is
the well dressed man that put
something from his pocket into, and he might even
put it into this safe here or whatever.
#01:
That's correct.
#66 :
And he came and he left and that's all you got.
#01:
That's all he did, right, exactly.
Now,
18
has
something to do with the problem, but it
is not
this 18.
# 66:
By the problem, we mean the thing that was stolen?
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#01:
Yes, yes, it has something to do with this brown,
white trimmed box here with the combination dial
lock on it, but it's not this one. The motive for
theft or whatever this thing is has to do with this
particular object. And I just, I get more than
just this one here, I'm getting a bunch of them.
I
getting like, there's a motive there and it has
something to do with another one.
#66 :
Okay.
But you have definite recollection on the
area,
12, 13 and 14?
#01:
Yeah, 12, 13 and 14 is where, you know, --
#66 :
The jumbled room with maps --
#01:
-- yeah, jumbled room with maps --
#66:
-- And picture 18 you feel
that the
theft has
something to that
thing, but not necessarily that
one.
#01:
But not necessarily that one, right, exactly.
#66 :
Okay.
#01:
So, hope that helped.
#66:
That's fine.
Okay, we'll put the tape recorder
hold and that will do it.
on
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