CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3

Approved For Release 2805/09/10 [OA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
5
TRANSCRIPT
HU-1080/8404
SG11
#66:
Okay, this will be a CENTER LANE Interview for 0950
hours on the 20th April 1984 with
SG11
SG11
Okay ,
as you have requested, I'm going to show
you a series of pieces of information and that you
feel you require in order to attain some attachment
with the subject at hand.
I'm going to do this
slowly with your prompting.
SG11
Okay .
#66:
The first thing I want to show you is a picture of a
missing individual, this picture is several years old
and
is
the picture that was used to make his
identification badge.
So
this picture is several
years old.
That is
the
picture used for his
identification badge.
SG11
Okay .
..
I don't know, when I say I don't know, I
have times, sometimes extremely hard to put in, this
person, when I say apparently simply means that it is
so, it's just the way that I'm speaking.
STAT
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-PDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET

STAT
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3

Approved For Release 2003 09/10 CTA-RDP96-0078R001900630001-3
STAT
#66:
That appears to be correct.
SG11
Okay .
I want this picture, and right now, please
tell me if I'm wrong with you people, I am freezing,
are you?
#66:
It's so cool in this building, but I'm not freezing,
and I 've got short sleeve shirt.
SG11
And I'm freezing.
So I just want to make that note,
STAT
STAT
I'm just giving you how I work, okay.
#66:
We understand kinesthetic impressions.
SG11
Okay .
#66:
Okay .
Now, something I failed to cover before we go
on to the next is, our three principal questions are,
where is he, how is he and who captured him or a
Approved For Release
SECRET
3

Approved For Releas6 2003/09/1 .CA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
various version of who captured him, who do we go see
to get his release?
Those are three primary
questions.
SG11
Okay .
#66:
Okay. The next thing I would like to show you is a
picture that was provided quickly by the kidnappers,
12 days ago, approximately 12 days ago.
There was no
note, no ransom demand, just as though they
were
saying to us, we have this person.
SG11
STAT
#66:
All right.
STAT
SG11
#66:
Approved For Release Egcoro 10 RIERDP96-0078R001900630001-3
4

Approved For Release 200 1/09/10 :[C)ABDI 96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Yes.
. I'm going to ask a question, so it could
be a back relationship.
You did say there were five
people, were the five people with him?
#66:
We don't know whether or not they were all together
at any one time.
I have the pictures here, if you'd
like to look at them, of the other four.
SG11
Okay.
It's just that I keep seeing a man in a
building, or let's say a room, I'm placing him now
there, okay, there are others and when the number
came was five and just wanted to make sure that I was
not being influenced by the five people that you were
telling, this is what I want to make straight.
#66:
Do you feel that the number of 5 pertains to all
hostages or captives or are there other type of guard
personnel?
SG11
These are, see, it appears more like guard personnel,
because of the image come, you know I'm visual and
(mumble) --
#66:
Yes, I understand.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDF96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET
5

-
Approved For Release Leadersda GIARDP96-0078R001900630001
SG11
-- is
that the person was
dressed something like
fatigues, but I don't want to call them fatigues,
okay, that kind of dress, with a gun, put the muzzle
over the, down over the shoulder.
#66:
That appears to be correct.
SG11
Okay .
And he, they are, but there are five of these.
#66:
Five people with guns slung, muzzle down over their
shoulders in a fatigue like dress.
SG11
Yes, yes. But I don't see the five, there's only one
that comes out to me as the model and I just wanted
to make sure that I was not mistaking myself with the
other at this moment.
#66:
All right, very good.
That would appear to be
correct.
SG11
I can tell you that this man's given no information
whatsoever.
£
But the breaking point, I feel that if
he has any more of what they're giving him that would
be more eminent, that he will not give in and that's
going to be the strong tie and that's very close, I
have to say that and I'm saying close, I'm giving you
48 hours.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10-01A-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
6

Approved For Release 2003/09/10)CIA-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SPORET
#66:
SG11
You're saying that he is not healthy?
Not healthy and whatever condition, you know the
aspect here.
I merely saying that I see that within
48 hours something is going to happen to this person,
okay.
I'm not death, I'm not saying anything, cause
he's at a break very low point, so that's what I'm
trying to say.
#66:
Okay, there's eminence involved?
SG11
Eminence involved, on your side as well as the-
They have refused any medical attention to this man.
..
. All right, I see streets, but they appear
like cobble stones to me, not tarred.
#66:
That's possibly correct.
SG11
And the houses are low and he is not hidden in where
you'd be looking in a hiding place. He's actually in
some kind of village or town.
That would appear to be correct.
#66:
Approved For Release 2003/09/ 0 017-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
7

Approved For Release 2003199110 CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
I also see a squared door and the houses are made of
brick or stone and you would go into this house with
something like this up. This guy keeps this thing
going, instead of going straight up, straight into a
room, it appears, when I go into my, I'm going to go
in there and there is a window that I want to look
through to give you some direction of where I am.
#66:
All right.
SG11
Now, I can't tell you which country yet, all I'm
saying that these are the impressions that I'm
getting.
.
. There's a small sentence that he's
sending. There are words that I cannot grasp though,
but it's meaningful to you and the words are
(mumble).
There would be four, five words, six
words, it's a short
sentence.
I keep he -- he keeps
repeating this and I don't know what this means.
#66:
Can you sound it out and write it out?
SG11
I probably will once I get --
#66:
That's fine.
Approved For Relea!
Sibb -HDP96-00788R001900630001-3
8

Approved For Release 200 319 70 CIA RDP96-0078R001900630001-3
SG11
Okay.
I
know it's a short
sentence, it's like a
message, but yet it's, .. it would mean nothing to
any ... if I was to hear it, it meant nothing to me.
#66:
But we may be able to find that out. Understand that
he has been contacted in this means before and he may
at the subconscious level now realize that he has
link of communication here.
SG11
I might ask you one question.
What if there're
children, what do you know.
#66:
According to our records, he is unmarried.
SG11
He's unmarried.
This, the reason I asked that woman
came into mind, is there, do you know anything about
that?
#66:
We have some information from before that he wants to
talk about a woman, can you pick up any --?
SG11
It's something like, when you ask, Irene or Ina, or
short again, something to that effect. Either it's a
nickname or, I'm giving you (mumble) by phonetics.
#66:
Yes.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET

Approved For Re
SEGRET
IA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Ask the question when I'm in contact with him more
fully. I'm going to work by contacting within him
primarily and then, cause this seems to be strongest
link that I have with him now.
#66:
Yes. He has previously wanted to talk about a
woman .. I don't know if it's a romantic, but there
seems to be some woman that he seems to want to talk
about.
SG11
. Question.
Either, it's about the country or
about him, but I hear a foreign language, does he
speak a foreign language?
#66:
We believe that he does speak a foreign language and
he is in a foreign country. He may speak many
foreign languages, or several foreign languages.
SG11
Because foreign language came fairly strong.
#66:
Can you get a feeling for the style of the foreign
language, is it an
asian language or romance
language, guttural?
SG11
Yeah, that will come to me --
Approved For Release 30es/09/1CIA-ROP96-00788R001900630001-3
10

..
Approved For Release 2003/09 10 : @TA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
S
EU
#66:
Later.
SG1
-- When you said gutteral, I get the cold feeling so
let's reach toward that.
At one point,
wherever he was, whether it's there now, I see myself
high on a hill or at least what appears to be high on
a hill, overlooking something below. Do you follow,
if I was high, and then it would be like a city below
or something to that effect.
#66:
(mumble).
SG11
... I'm just putting this together so, you know,
because I don't what-
-
#66:
I understand that you're trying to get your anchor,
your contact,
SO
that
when you go
contact
him -- (mumble).
SG11
Okay.
What else do we have from this point?
#66:
I can now tell you where he was taken from and the
date and that will at this time reveal the city.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
11

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 >(14-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Okay .
The first, because of my contact with him so I
can be personal and it's rare that I ask this, and I
will, I want his full name so that I can pronounce it
and if there was a nickname given to him I would like
to have that too.
#66:
All right.
I do not know about a nickname, however
his full name is William Francis Buckley.
He was
born on the 30th
of
May
in
1928
in
Medford,
Massachusetts.
SG11
Okay, that's all I need to know.
So, ah ... repeat the
name again one more time please.
#66:
Mr. William Francis Buckley.
SG11
William
Francis Buckley.
Or
sounds
like
the
Buckley.
Is he the same person?
#66:
No, he's not.
SG11
I didn't think I, okay, William Francis Buckley, okay
I have it.
#66:
All right.
CRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
12

Approved For Release 2003/09/18 : CtA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET
SG11
Okay, then.
Where was he last seen?
#66:
All right.
SG11
Where was he kidnapped from and then where was he
last seen?
#66:
Those would be the same question, same answer.
He's
last known to be and last seen in this place and he's
been gone since.
SG11
In Massachusetts?
#66:
No, I'm sorry.
I now show you a part of a city map
from the city of Beirut, Lebanon and his residence
building is as indicated on the red dot.
He was
taken from this location at approximately 8:00 in the
morning local time on the 16th of March in 1984 and
he has not been seen or
heard
from
until
approximately 12 days ago when the picture you had,
and there are many concepts and ideas.
£
I have a map
of the entire country as well, if you like? He may
or may not be still within this.
** DET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
13

Approved For Release 2003/09/1-PROP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Let me see the map of the country.
Boy that's been
my whole background.
. Want to do now
is, some of the things that I do to verify for my own
self, if he has left
the country (mumble) .
I'm going to ask you one question, where
was the picture delivered?
#66:
To the British Embassy in the city of Beirut.
It was
slipped under the door.
SG11
Um, um.
Okay.
Cold chills, the man is still within
the area.
There's no need to search any other
country.
#66:
Okay, you feel he's still in the country.
SG11
Lebanon.
Okay.
City, not sure, but I'm going to
have to work on that now.
#66:
Now, because of this sparse data we have, I want to
tell you that map that you are looking at obviously
doesn't show every little town and village that are
around and there're are many, many of them.
SG11
I know Lebanon, cause I lived, well not really lived,
but this is the actual, it's may ancestors (mumble) ,
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
14

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
Lv
this is why I find so (mumble), this is (mumble)
happening there.
#66:
Yes.
SG11
So I can give you a better description, more than I
have now and apparently my description was (mumble).
#66:
That type of --
SG11
Part that type thing.
#66:
All right, now I do have a map of Beirut.
SG11
Would you?
#66:
Yes.
Well, I wanted to explain to you that I don't
want to front load you.
SG11
No, no, no. (Mumble)
#66:
I do have a map of Beirut, but I don't want to front
load you and say this is where he is, because we
don't know.
Approved For Release 2003/09/1
CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
15

Approved For Release 200 3/09
SECREAR
SG11
No, no.
That's why I want to, that's why I said you,
all I'm saying is this. I'm saying that I know he's
in Lebanon, but I can not tell you whether he's in
Beirut or not, okay.
#66:
All right.
SG11
Okay.
At
this moment
according to the map, I do not find him in Beirut.
#66:
All
right.
That makes our intelligence problem a
little more difficult, because detailed maps of other
places are very hard to come by.
We'll be very
dependent
upon
you
then
for
geographical
descriptions, once you contact him.
SG11
Yeah.
Let me put it this way, I have to assure you
that there will be no difficulty, he is not in
Beirut, the message I was getting while in contact,
I'm not in Beirut center, Beirut, but I'm not too far
from there, okay, so what the message came to me,
don't be looking for me in the mountains or, you
know, whatever the aspect, it is still a civilized
area where you would not suspect, okay, but it is not
the city of Beirut.
Approved For Release 2003/05/10 : 0|1_RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
16

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
In the city proper, like you consider downtown.
SG11
The city proper, yeah that's what I'm saying, but it
is within the vicinity of Beirut.
#66:
Whatever the word vicinity means at this time.
SG11
Right.
#66:
Okay, I think when we're in contact with him, we'll
be able to find out a little more information.
SG11
Ah ... can I have his picture, I'll look at this.
#66:
Which one, you'd like both of them.
SG11
I want the one, yeah, please, both of them.
.
I
want
it recorded a small word being sent, it's
called, is EL, that's, you have AL here but that's
not the word I hear, I hear it more like E L.
#66:
That would appear to be like much other information
that's been recorded.
What are the words following E
L?
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
17

OCCRET
Approved For Release 2003/05/40 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Apparently this sounds like EL HYBIT, I know Arabic,
but I'm not getting the sound properly, maybe I
should wait til
later
that, because if he's
pronouncing it right, I will be able to give you the
right or as close as I can, since I know Arabic
(mumble). The language barrier here will not be a
problem for me.
#66:
If in fact he speaks Arabic and I don't know that for
sure.
SG11
Yeah, but he may pronounce certain words (mumble)
#66:
I understand, I understand.
SG11
But at least what I'm going to be finding is that
when I do hear certain things, I'm able to pick up
certain things, it will be very much simpler for him
since I know the language.
I never thought I would
run into something with my own language.
I
want it
recorded that word EL HADIT, HADIT, I do know that
it's a place in the mountains, but this is not what
it is here, okay, it is not, EL HADIT isn't here, I
know there is a place outside Lebanon called EL HADIT.
#66:
Can you spell that for our typist, please?
Approved For Release 2003 09/15 (1A-F DP96-00788R001900630001-3
18

Approved For Release Todaro600-21 -RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Okay.
It
would be, I know the Arabic, and I
pronounce it also.
EL-HADAT, as well as I can write
it from the Arabic.
#66:
SG11
It's pronounce EL-HADIT.
I don't want you to mistake EL-HADIT with the region
of Lebanon that's the area where message's coming
through, that, you know, something EL-HADIT, where he
is.
#66:
I want to be clear about you say, that we shouldn't
be mistaken.
SG11
There is a place called EL-HADIT, it's in the
mountains.
#66:
And you're saying this is not the place.
SG11
This is not the place. I'm still remaining within
the area of the area, not Beirut, but what do we know
about Beirut today.
#66:
In the
strong area.
Approved For Release
230GRDP-00788R001900630001-3
DCT

SEOREP
Strong area, he is not in the center of Beirut, but
in the outskirt of Beirut but still not far, so you
people will not have to go climbing mountains or, now
it comes familiar to me, when I said something high,
okay, with (mumble) , few, because
I
know that
outside, you know, close by (mumble), if you look
close seems to appear and you see the water in some
of this. I'm presenting now logic over the knowledge
that I have known, if you hear that from the room,
remember
that, because I'm familiar
with
the
terrain.
It does not effect my work, in fact it
enhances it.
#66:
You know when it interferes.
SG11
Yeah, I know when it interferes.
#66:
Okay, that good.
SG1
Okay.
1
#66:
You think we might be what you call the outskirts
then of Lebanon.
SG11
Um, um.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2005/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
20
SG11

Approved For Release :00 1/09 10 : [CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
And the word EL HADIT comes to mind, but not the
mountainous region of EL HADIT.
SG11
Yes. El HADIT could be the name of a man.
It could
be, you know, EL HADIT, you know, could be the name
of a street.
#66:
Okay.
SG11
Okay?
I don't know at this point.
#66:
Maybe when we contact him, it will become clear.
SG11
Yeah.
You know it's strange, but I have to say that,
all of this happened with me before and I'd like to
the information
that
I
got, when this happened
before.
I'm not saying past life.
#66:
I understand.
SG11
I'm just saying that somewheres in the (mumble), all
this happened before.
#66:
What you're saying is that you having engaged a
little. experience about being involved with this
honest problem.
Approved For Releas 3053/09/15PA-RPP96-00788R001900630001-3
21

Approved For Release 2008/09
DO COR EAR
SG1
Yes, and you being there, now I recall why you came
back to my mind.
Now remember just one more thing.
Or I hope to God I'm not too late.
I don't whether
that's worth anything better, just
if you (mumble)
this is de-ja-vu, something close.
Something close
(mumble). Okay, anything else that I need.
#66:
You remember his name?
SG11
Yes.
William Buckley will be enough.
His age would
be like 50.
#66:
He was born in 1928.
SG11
So he's 54.
I
can find out about this woman, the
link with the
woman.
sometimes I may be
SG11
speaking fairly low when you're monitoring the tapes,
just say. I actually can not hear you, would you
repeat.
#66:
Yes.
SG11
Okay.
There is at times when I'm really in the scene
or involvement as an observer (mumble), as this point
my voice becomes very, very low.
Approved For Release 2003 09110 HA-HDP96-00788R001900630001-3
22

Approved For Release 20 310 20 CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
I understand, we've dealt with the problem before,
and we have very good quality equipment for that
reason.
SG11
I'm ready.
#66:
All right.
SG11
I'm going to use the bed.
I'll lie down and ( mumble)
I'd like to be alone and I don't need the map, I will
go over there and make a contact.
And with the
contact with him then he will tell me certain things
that of terrain and ask all the questions you want,
please do not be --
#66:
Okay, you'd like to be alone in the room.
SG11
Yes, alone.
#66:
And I can talk to you through a little microphone or
headphone.
SG11
Or a headphone, I can wear them unless you have an
intercom, whatever you will use is okay with me.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 3 CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3

Approved For Release20 -3/0 7OF CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-J
#66:
That's fine.
We're now moving into the other room.
PAUSE
MOVED TO OTHER ROOM TO PREPARE:
SG11
.I
am slightly outside of the
city of Beirut.
This means I'm in the outskirt, but
not in the center of the city of Beirut.
Where I am,
the street is a flat street, it's not ah. . climbing
street, that means it's not a hill, the street is not
a hill.
It is flat.
It is a narrow street and what
appears to me is the people living there are lower
than middle class people. Again by outskirt, I don't
want you to think I'm miles away. From this street,
it's ... it is not from the street.
But
from
the
window, going in and I'm going up and if I was going
to look out of the window, what appears to me and I
have to say appears to me, I keep seeing either lower
streets,
it's like I'm on one street and
there's a street
lower than me where there are
houses, if I may use like steps, at least at this
area of the outskirt of Lebanon.
..... I see way out
in the distance, it is apparent, I keep, water comes
to my mind .... at a far distance, by far distance I
don't mean 100's of. miles that's what I'm saying.
At
Approved For Releas
SECRET
2003/09110\ CIA-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
24

Approved For Release 2003/09/< ETA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
a distance there's water.
I can not make it whether
it's the ocean or a swimming pool or something, there
is
water.
And there are
trees.
.
. ah
... . . An
Arabic word which I don't know the definition as well
as I know and maybe colloquial or sounding like this,
even though I know Arabic, it doesn't make sense and
there's some words that doesn't, SHAHALIEH, if I was
to write it phonetic, SHAHALIEH, would be S H A L A
Y, that is phonetically spelled, SHALAY, S H A L A Y,
SHALAY.
..
It
relates
to the, something in
regards to the area.
. I'm going to go back
into the house,
It
is
apparent that the
dialogue with him.
I
have to add here
that I have now found what
the gut, the, .... that
voice that does not, or the, what it sounds, was gut,
I can't even pronounce the word, harsh voice or not
romantic sound. It is apparent to me ah .... that how
would I put it, ah .... the voice I was hearing is a
The guttural
man, not from Lebanon or the area.
hear is giving
feeling or the guttural voice that I
me a connection that a country, ah ..... hm .... What I'm
experiencing,
here is a man well dressed in one
scene, oh, I'm sorry, well dressed in a uniform and I
will come back to the uniform and then a man dressed
as
the person there.
But he is not Arabic in
speaking voice.
And I have to say the connection
SG11
SG11
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CARDP96-00788R001900630001-3
25

Approved For Release 200310 0 -CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
here.
The only way that I can, the voice, from the
guttural, it's not German.
Trying to think of other
gutteral voices.
It's not, I have to put that this
person, whatever connection he has here, I would have
to put Russian and that is quite apparent with what I
call the double vision, that means position and how
he acts now and if he was in his regular environment,
he would be wearing a uniform and looks to me quite
Russian.
Now these are not the people you have to
deal with, because I don't know what he's doing
there, and that's that gutteral feeling and I'm
getting the, those cold chills again, extremely cold
chills at this point.
Do you know anything
about kilometers,
Yes.
What would be, he's
trying to say something, what
would be, how many
miles would 125 kilometers be?
I
just want to make
sure I'm in contact here.
Okay, then I'm not
getting him
correctly
then.
. Let's, the
kilometers?
12 kilometers?
number, how about 25
...
. Okay .
I'm going to have to
interpret what he's saying and I don't know from
where, from what direction he was taken to the
outskirts of Beirut, okay?
I can tell you this, what
he appears to him saying that it could not be more
than 12 kilometers.
You follow that?
Kilometers,
okay.
Ah
Please keep also in note, that 1
Approved For Release 2003709 10 : [CIA; RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11

SECRET
₹DP96-00788R001900630001-3
Approved For Release
through 5, he keeps repeating 1 through 5.
He keeps
repeating, 1, 2, 5.
..
.. It's not a number like 125,
it's just says keep repeating 1, 2, 5. And he's very
firm about.
. Ah .. shifting again, ah,
I
keep seeing close by to this street or section,
which is slightly outside Beirut, that he keeps
repeating, a (mumble) of what I'm getting that he's
not away from there, but, and the reason that he was
moved or went there is because of the aspects, the
middle of Beirut, and I'll try to come back to that.
There's a lot of noise that I hear around this street
and the noise is like if they were, it's not gun
shots, nothing like that, as if they
were doing
repair or construction, or machinery.
But I don't
see them, I only hear the noise from the room where
he is.
. Another sound that he's heard
once in a while and he says he feels that it's like a
plane, but he's not sure.
.....
.Oh boy.
....
. Okay .
I was brought here ... in something, .. I
was
brought
in a vehicle completely closed and
therefore I have seen nothing, but I can only report
to you the sounds of my surroundings.
And some of
.I can
them are extremely strong to my ear.
....
also hear people talking .... outside when I am brought
close, or close to a window.
It is the only window
which ah .... which I can recognize.
It is apparent
SECRET
Approved For Release 2008/09/40 | CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
27

FORET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
that in the other room the windows have been blocked
or covered, so I can not tell you what I am seeing
behind me.
. .
I
tell you that I have three
people with me 24 hours a day.
.
. These people
change .... at times there are five people.
The reason
that I know this is when I'm, want to go to the
bathroom and at one confrontation, there were five
people.
....
. Among themselves the people
are
speaking Arabic, but I not they are not people from
the country.
..
. My perception of the person at
this point is that they have a dark skin. They are
not a white skin.
.. When I say my perception, I
SG11
mean
perception, off the person, in stuff
like dungarees with gun.
.... The persons, and he
says persons who ask me a lot of questions,
... boy. . speak fluent English with out a trace of any
accent.
. They have certain information that it
is apparent that someone gave them, which is of
crucial
importance
..
. and they feel that
H
..
.I'm thirsty, they don't give me much
know
..
to drink.
They don't give me much to eat. I've gone
days without eating. At times I can not even hold
myself to walk.
Several times a person has been
brought in, ... I am not sure what his capacity is, he
did not examine me as a
medical doctor, but
apparently gave evaluation or ... because I do not
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
28

Approved For Release zod 3/09 R CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-5
SG11
understand what they are speaking, but it's only my,
my sense that they were wondering how ill I
was.
He
shifts again and he
says ..... go
northeast.
This is what I'm asking
him,
He's giving me no answer.
Ah .. . Ah .... I'm
getting chills here and I have to, I'm trying to
grasp something.
....
.
.I don't want to miss this
point of information,
I'm, I've got freezing
elements, cold. Okay.
are you aware where he
SG11
was before he was at this point?
You know
.
what he's trying to tell me and I'm not able to grasp
it, but I'm hold to stick with it for a while. He's
telling me the time which should be important to you,
but I don't from where. You know how many minutes it
took, you know the way he visualizes it, where, you
know, where he is.
..
. Okay .
I
must go back ask you questions about the kilometers.
Are you with me? How long would it take through a
city and I'll tell you why after, because to travel
12 kilometers,
What did you say about
25
minutes?
About 25 minutes from where ever
the point is, but it's still just on the outskirts of
Lebanon, but I'm trying to find what he's trying to
tell me, where was he, you know, was he picked up
from his home or.
. . yeah.
Okay .
I'm
SG11
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET
00

Approved For Releas
SECRET
RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
going to answer, not the question you just asked, but how long
he feels it took, okay. And it's apparent that it didn't take
him more than 25 minutes.
At least to his time right now and I
don't know what that means. He's trying to give me his position
where he is now.
Do you follow that?
That's right in time so
that you would, but I want to find out from where now he comes.
. I don't know what you know but what he tells me
you seem to apparently say several, but to me it isn't, two
place twice, he was moved twice.
. Okay ..... okay ..... Can
you ask two a question that
will help me.
The two that
Or do
returned, were they in the middle of the city of Beirut?
you know? Yeah, Yeah, well whatever way we want to look at it,
yeah.
And what did I tell you he told me to go what. . . go north,
what was it that I told you, do you remember?
You can, . .. All
right.
The other people were where? I'm trying to grasp
Where were the two
something from him and I need some feedback.
redeemed from, where were they in the city?
A
little bit to the
south of Beirut.
See this is an area that I don't know.
I'm
trying to find out why he says north.
I'm going to take a
SG11
break here, I want to go back to the map, do you mind?
And then
I
will come back.
There's something that bothers me.
Okay.
Would you come in and detach me, please?
Okay .
I
want to make
some observations with you.
The area and the construction that
comes to my mind, you know, as I'm looking, now this is from,
this is clairvoyant now at this point as we're talking, it's not
where I'm, you know.
Approved For Releas, 00€/09 1 CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
20

Approved For Releas
SEGRET
b\4-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
SG11
I understand.
What came in could sound like voice means something
when you repeat to me.
How would I put it, on one
side or a corner of where he is, but there's like a
board, boards or fence or something but it's like
it's boarded, it's not barb wire fence.
This is
clairvoyant now, I'm not there I'm just giving you
some
clairvoyant information.
Ah. . and
there's a
flattening area.
Now let me explain.
Roads, when
you
said,
I
said cobblestone, residential
and
apparently this residential place and then I see
something where construction is going, let's put it
this way, and there's like boards, at least,
apparently there would be danger for someone to fall
or it has been boarded in.
#66:
Is that in this building that he's in?
No, this is outside this building now.
SG11
#66:
Someplace else?
SG11
No, no. I'm picking up some clairvoyant scene from
outside the building where he is so it will give us a .
description of where --
Approved For Release Foo 100 R CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
31

Approved For Release 200 109 R CIA RDP96-0078R001900630001-3
#66:
The general area.
SG11
--- the general area, okay?
...
. Again, psychic
impression, I don't know what you people have done or
how or who's looking for him or whatever this is, I
can tell this much, that ... how would I put it,
I don't know who you have there and who would be in
charge and I don't need to know. It's just that I'm
saying is that somebody has gone by where he is, does
that make sense?
That's all I'm going to say.
#66:
I
wouldn't know whether they have or not, but it
could be checked on.
Let me see if we can't clarify
that perception.
And there had been a random passing
by this area or
is this an area that has been
officially looked into in some way?
SG11
I, it's a random, random meaning not thinking that he
could be in this area.
I don't know whether they
have looked in the area, you know, but I see at least
one person which, you know, I see this one person
going by there and this person has something to do in
finding him or something that related to that.
#66:
But simply discounted it.
Approved For Relea 2003/057 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
32

Approved For Release 2003/09
CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Discounted, yes.
#66:
All right.
That's a good piece of (mumble)
SG11
And they ultimately discounted it psychically,
I
feel, because it was a lower area, living area.
#66:
Lower class?
SG11
Lower class.
They were not rich people and they were
not middle class people, they were lower than that.
wouldn't say, I can't say they're poor either,
I
that's not what I'm saying.
Apparently the house is
not, you know, what I can see of it, the walls, the
rooms or whatever it is, it looks like somebody could
rent that and you know, so that's another psychic
impression of what I'm seeing.
So it might give you
some idea of the area. Any other questions you want?
#66:
Is the neighborhood itself noted for anything?
SG11
SG11
Ask me that when I'm under again.
What I'm going to
do, I'm going to continue to (mumble) as you said,
try to get as much information out of him.
Approved For Release 100 09/10 FIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001.2

DET
Approved For Release 2003/0.7\0 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
Okay.
SG11
And then we will, we know the condition of his
health, we know the other questions that you asked.
#66:
Perhaps you can be a comfort to him, knowing that he
is in a dire state and he's rather desperate.
Try
being a comfort to him, warm up to him and then go
deeper, beyond.
Act as an agent yourself in relaxing
him.
SG11
Okay.
Okay.
Whenever you're ready, I will be.
. . .
I'm back where he is, I'm back
with him now.
He is sitting on the
floor.
. I'm sitting next to him.
. I have
a sense that he is aware that I am with him.
I've
asked him to relax.
Deep in his
consciousness he has a great concern ... that he will
be moved again and he feels if this is done, it will
be much harder ... ah .... his concern is that when he
moves, not if, when he moves again, he will not be
able to survive the ordeal.
I've gone through
SO
much now.
The compass direction (end
of tape)
that
I have given you that I'm still
northwest, west, northwest, northeast, .... directions
that I've given you, as far as I can determine, you
Approved For Release 290 10: 110 FORD596-00788R001900630001-3
34

Approved For Release to0 100 CIA-RDP96-0078R001900630001-5
SG11
are in the right direction.
At this
point,
I heard .the word, not from him, but I
don't know from where, the word is EL KAFLA and I
don't know how to spell it. EL KAFLA, if I were to
spell it, I would say KAFLA, but I'm not sure.
My perception of this is all I can give you.
I'm trying very hard, since I have not seen daylight,
which I really don't know what it's like. I hear a
lot of sounds.
..... It's very .. rare ... the voices I
. There is now a
hear, I do not understand.
. .
disturbance or interruption by one of the guards.
What I'm getting from the subconscious of the guard
is the same which I'm getting from William Buckley,
apparently they are waiting to move him again or to
release him.
He's unconscious from the guard.
They're anticipating some kind of orders with an
immediacy, that means very near or close by.
They
waiting for some immediacy, something immediate to be
some orders very shortly or whether they are going to
stay, there or not.
It is apparent to me, now AT is
speaking, okay, from what I can gather, that if they
are to move him, it will have to be within from today
here, from Good Friday, before Sunday.
And the
reason behind this is the season of Christianity that
they are in and it would be less observed than on a
regular time or a regular day. Now, I say
but I
SG11
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
35

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 -CA-RIP96-00788R001900630001-3
seem to be picking up, that also in the consciousness
of where I am.
It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm
just giving you what it goes, so.
It's an Arabic
word that I'm trying to, that I got from the guard,
that is not clear and I'm trying to have him repeat
it to me or at least think about it so that I can
pick it up.
.The reason I'm silent
and I go back is that the guard is thinking about
something and I'm trying
to ... get
into
that
consciousness and how do I say this, penetrate it,
get into it and I'm getting syllables but they're not
definitive enough so, just hold on and I'll keep
going on here.
One of the words,
SG11
it's apparent
something is going to be taking place
or already has,
The word, one of the words is
MUSHALAH and if I remember my Arabic well, it means
ah ... you know, I hope it's done.
So something has to
be done here, but I'm trying to get the rest of the
words, what is to be done, and that's where the
hesitation is.
It is apparent to me from
his subconscious, that they're waiting at this time,
I don't know what time or what day this is, for some
kind of change with William Buckley.
That is what
I'm picking up from the guard.
This
change means
that decision has to be made whether he remains where
he is or they are to take him to another place.
The
..
RET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 | CIA.RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
36
-

Approved For Release 2063 PRET
decision
will be made if they have been able to
received all he had, information they can. And how
close he is to have, that he will be alive or not
alive.
And
is
it
apparent to me
from
the
subconscious of the guard, is that they can not allow
him to die.
That if they did and that is the whole
thing about this, that they, in fact the information
sent back to wherever the headquarters is, "Look, we
can't hold on to this guy too long, if this goes on
he will die. And if he does it means we are going to
have problems."
William Buckley senses this also.
I have a sense that you have a question, you
want to ask it?
Are you asking me if there is an
immediate headquarters within the elements of Lebanon
or are you asking from the head, head, headquarters?
.And it's within Lebanon, within the city of
.It
is in Beirut,
Beirut?
...
.It
is
in Beirut.
. .
the people are distinguished people, they are not, at
least the one I'm relating to right now, although
There is someone
they are, let me put it this way.
dressed in normal civilian clothes which is directing
this whole operation, even though there are soldiers,
or
what
appears to me as soldiers, within
the
vicinity.
Any other questions you would like,
SG11
...
. No, in and around where this other person is,
also.
..
. This person, yes this man would be that
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
VACI
37
SG11

Approved For Release 2003/09/1
LRDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
SG11
person. I also have an insight from this man,
that some messages are going to be sent to you
people, very shortly in regards to his release and I
just hope to God it's not his death.
Because the
conversation that I'm getting here is in regards to
the release. Um, um.
He speaks Arabic
and French and they speak other languages. He has
been within Lebanon for a long time. He is, what
appears to me,
about 50 years old or maybe a
little less, but not older.
I can't imagine him be
older.
But age sometimes is very deceiving to me.
Ah.
..
I'm going to give you the message that comes
to me, okay,
the way it's read.
Contacts will
be made soon, contacts will be made soon.
It
is
apparent to me, at this time, that no one from this
end can make the contact, the contact will be made
from the other end.
And for the reason, of the
security of this person, who no one would ever in the
world suspect, that he is helping, no, that he is
betraying Lebanon.
So the person is of a high
official.
Go ahead ask your question,
I'm getting cold chills here and I
want to know what that means, so be, hold on a
second, let me see what comes in.
..
.
SG11
.
I'm having
cold chills,
I'm going to have to ask you a
question.
I'm back to normal, not in the out of
SG11
SG11
Approved For Release 3093/09/1-R-A-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
38

Approved For Release2003 GREAT.
CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
state here. I am at a loss, because I don't know
what they would bargain for. First of all, it's not
money, two, I don't see, at least I'm being logical
here, I don't see where we have information that this
person needs, but I'm just sorting this out to you
now and I don't need any response on it.
£
The chills
are here and the information apparently is going to
be decided of whether, they're afraid this person is
going to die or not. And apparently a message would
be sent where to be found or that in some way would
be found or would be led to where the person is
without involvement of anything.
. Is that, that's
what the impression I'm getting from that person,
now. Do you understand that?
The answer
is yes. And there's a cold chill here meaning, yes.
But this man, you can trust him, boy, the cold chills
again, what is it,
come out.
...
SG11
. I'm going
to say something that will be very helpful for you.
This person is known to our American Intelligence or
government or so forth as a politician or a person in
special place in the Lebanese Government.
a
. .
: . Before you ask that question, I have to, there
are chills here and ..
again, a chill.
This person
will probably show himself as, if it is a visible
sign, all right, cause there are two things involved
in the mind of the person, and I'm not trying to
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 CA-RDP96-0078R001900630001-3
39

Approved For Release 2003/09/40
FEIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
confuse you, but please ask the question.
On one
side they're trying to say to me, "All right, we'll
just leave him there and we'll tell them where, send
the information. " okay.
Or this person that I'm
seeing, although is related to this whole kidnapping,
which no one knows, will say, "Well, I can help you
or
I
will go as an in between to release your
person" .
Do you follow the two concepts that I'm
getting?
. I'm not able to comprehend your
SG11
question,
would you repeat it again please?
The answer is yes.
Well, of his position in this
whole aspect of Lebanon.
It doesn't make sense to me
but that's what I'm giving you.
. All right,
it's done.
He won't answer that one to me.
Let me
try to
see if
I can get into his subconscious.
Boy, he's a hard nut to crack,
he's so strong.
Would you record the word, NHAMAMAH,
N, phonetically, NHAMA, MAH, NUSHMY.
I may pronounce
it wrong.
It's true that I
know Arabic,
but
SG11
I've been away from it so long,
for so many years,
but at least I'm familiar with
the sound of the
language, so I'll have to leave it as such for you.
with the
SG11
NHAMAMAH may have something to relate,
person, you know, this person that I'm in contact
with.
I just want to make that known.
Yes, yeah,
but I, psychically I have a feeling it has to do with
6369R FA-FDP96-0
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 CIA-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
40

Approved For Release 2003/09/ 10 : CIA RD 296-00788R001900630001-3
him.
..... No, go ahead and then if I need to come
back, I will.
. To me the answer is yes.
At
this point, as I stand now, the answer is yes.
As I
stand in the future, the answer is yes.
Do you
understand what I mean?
I
only dread one thing,
okay, I only dread the sanity that will have left for
William Buckley.
Yeah.
He was aware of that when I
was sitting there with him and now I'm going to, I'm
going to do something that I do,
I'm going to
send energy, not just to William Buckley, but I'm
going to send energy for the release of Mr. Buckley
and to be found, in whatever shape we can find him in
the best of health we can with what we know.
That
has worked very, very well with murder cases and so
forth, so every time I'm at a stop, I do this.
I do
this now, the energy is sent that Mr. Buckley be
found and be found very shortly, meaning as soon as
possible.
I just want to reinstate that I do not see
Mr. Buckley in the city of Beirut, but in the
outskirt.
The place is not a high class place.
It
is apparent to me that they chose that place as to
where the others were released as to deviate or to
misdirected in case they thought that this was the
area, that you know, others would be.
Why they've
done this, I'm not sure.
If you're asking me whether
Mr. Buckley again to repeat will he be found, the
SG11
Approved For Release -2003/09/10 CTA-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
41
.

DET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA- RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
answer is yes.
Will he be found alive, the answer is
yes. I just want to say what Mr. Buckley is saying
to me, to get to the construction.
The noise that he
hears is like construction noise.
And one other
thing that a plane from time to time would go over
that area and implies that that is important, that he
hears. He does not hear planes all day long. But
what he says sounds like a plane, I have to say that,
I'm sorry, I don't want to misinterpret what he is
saying. He is also saying that he has been sending
directions, but I also feel from my own presence to
him, there's a lot of flaps of things within his own
mind and I'll leave it as such.
Anything else that I
can do,
Okay .
Yeah.
SG11
#66:
That light is pretty sudden isn't it?
SG11
No, that's okay, something ... what did I say, cause
the word, okay.
There's something, this is Friday,
would it be Saturday there now or would it be Friday?
#66:
I don't know which way the calendar goes for them.
Their Friday, being Muslim, their Friday's their
holiday, I believe.
SG11
There's a slight note that I remember about moving.
CRET
Approved For Release 2003/08/10\ CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
42

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
What did I say in regards to moving him?
#66:
You said that
there was some consideration about
whether they would move him, that's the guard was
thinking moving him. But when we went to the man
with civilian clothes, he was talking about making a
decision in two ways, whether or not the information
would just come out that go to this place and find
Buckley, or he was going to volunteer to work as
intermediary, but he is actually is the person in
charge.
SG11
That's not it, about timing.
#66:
You said movement concerned maybe having to do with
his illness.
Say again, Bill.
SG11
Something about timing.
#66:
Timing is between now and Sunday.
SG11
We've got to watch that closely and I'm getting the
chills on that.
#66:
Okay .
Approved For Release 2003/09/10+ CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
43

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 -CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Apparently, it's a time, something to do with
religion, something to do with year. At least --
#66:
You said something about Christian religious holidays
or moving during the Christian religious holidays or
something.
SG11
Ah ...
#66:
Between Good Friday and Sunday.
SG11
in some
SG11
Yeah, let me, can we be in contact,
way, I know it's very tricky, over phones and things
like this. Because a lot of that information may
come back to me or you may have --
#66:
Further questions.
1
SG11
-- Further questions.
#66;
We can make those arrangements.
SG11
There is something that I have not fully grasp, and
that has happened in the experiments with the police,
also to know I can make a second comeback on that.
It's too bad I have to leave tomorrow morning. Let's
RET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
44

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 _CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
talk about it as we go here. You see, there's always
information that comes when as I'm driving and things
like this, but I
don't want to jeopardize the
security.
#66:
I understand, all you have to do is give us a call
and we can get on an airplane or do one of many
things.
SG11
Yeah. Oh, you can give me a call also, if you have
certain interest and just say when do you think you
could be free, you know and nothing, I'll understand
or some kind of code.
#66:
Okay .
SG11
SG11
I have to tell you something,
I'm still leery
whether my phone has been tapped or not and for those
reasons
I have not been talking with
and so
SG11
forth.
The reason behind this is
that I
have
followed and really approached by quite a few number
of people which are not American people.
#66:
Okay, we can make arrangements and you can always go
to a pay phone and we can make arrangements,
communication arrangements, that's not a problem.
Approved For Release 2003/09/1 CA-ROP96-00788R001900630001-3
45

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
And I've told that to
and then I told that to
some other people, not in the meeting yesterday, but
to some, to General.
It is a concern.
#66:
Well, because you are so visible in the news media
and have worked openly with the police, I would
imagine that you would be very visible.
SG11
SG11
I want also to make another statement that I made to
the General and I want you to take it as it is.
I'm
afraid that other countries and I
want you to be
careful with the psychics you are
involved with,
because of other countries approaching psychics.
#66:
Um, um.
SG11
For information.
#66:
On the psychic plane or --
SG11
Or on any plane, whether they are working and
(mumble) (mumble) things like this.
#66:
Um, um.
CRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
46

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 - CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
When I told that to the General, he understood, but I
also hear that the General is leaving.
#66:
That's correct.
SG11
And I'm leaving that information with you, in case he
did not tell you since you're pretty much here
involved with this.
I'm not trying to throw
suspicion, but I want you to be careful. Because I
have strong psychic evidence that this is happening.
You may also know something about it, but I just
warned for the record.
#66:
Okay, good.
.
SG11
I want to go to the bathroom. . When I work I have to
rush to bathrooms.
#66:
Okay .
SG11
Let me get my glass case over there, yeah.
BACK TO TAPE I
SG11
The guttural feeling of the voice I heard and that
I'm going to have to straighten out what that means.
RET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
47

Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
Okay. When I said what foreign language is it you
hear, the question is whether it was guttural or
romance, asian.
SG11
Because Lebanese is very soft, so I'm going to have
to see who these are, since guttural means something
quite strange.
#66:
Okay. I'd like to review just one more time. Where
is he, which means to us, describe his location, how
is he, means to us, describe his physical and
psychological condition. And who are his captors and
most specifically, not necessarily the soldier type
that's standing next to him, we don't need to know
his name, but who is the responsible individual that
we might be able to negotiate with.
SG11
Okay. When that has come in that says that I see
black, so something dark, so the people are not, I
want put a chinese or part of face.
That there's a
dark, by dark I'm not sure if it's black, but the
skin is dark. (mumble)
so that I can also give,
would you, I don't remember much of this. When I'm
in there, put me back into the scene, can you do
that, you remember enough about that.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 - CIA-ROP96-00788R001900630001-3
48

SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
.
#66:
Yes.
SG11
So that I can, I make a (mumble) by putting me back
into the scene.
#66:
I'll get you started in here.
SG11
All right.
You want to turn your tape off.
#66:
You all wrapped up here.
mumbles, mumbles, bang,
mumbles.
We can go back outside and look at the map.
SG11
I said to go north what again?
#66:
Northeast.
SG11
How would that fit in here now, if we were looking --
#66:
The point is is that north is at the top of the page,
but when you say go northeast, we don't whether or
not he's telling us to go northeast from Beirut or if
you go from
where I
am, northeast you'll find
Beirut.
The data bit is too small to make any sense
out of it right now.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 4GIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 . CA-ROP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Okay, so that's what I have to, okay.
And he was
captured somewhere's in here.
#66:
Right in this neighborhood.
SG11
This is all Beirut still and here too.
#66:
That's correct.
And as any city sprawls over time.
. Now, I want to tell you something at this point
that kind of validates some of the things you said
that I didn't tell you before.
The other people that
were recovered were blind folded the entire time.
It
may be that he is blind folded the vast majority of
the time that he is there, which is going to make him
very disoriented, but make him only able to hear as
you recorded.
He only says he can report things that
he hears.
But
it
is going to make him very
disoriented.
SG11
Well, see, I see him even worse than this.
#66:
He's in bad shape.
SG11
And I, see and it's trying to get what he's trying to
tell me and part of it is by telepathy.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
50

SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
Yes, I understand.
SG11
He's able to think, but this northeast baffles me
because where I'm standing --
#66:
Okay, I'd like to talk about two approaches that when
you refocusing on it --
SG11
Okay.
#66:
One is go beyond what we define telepathy, go down
into his subconscious.
SG11
This is what I'm doing by telepathy, this is what I'm
doing, that's where most of the information is coming
from.
#66:
He may know more down inside him than he is
consciously aware that he knows.
SG11
Okay, oh I see what you're saying, okay.
#66:
So, go down inside him, beyond his present
environment, beyond what he consciously thinks he
knows about the place and then the other approach is
can you by associating with him and in the area, can
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP 96-00788R001900630001-3
51

SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
you come to know one of the guard personnel?
Surely
the guards know exactly where they are in the
neighborhood. So can we get to the point and then
transfer over to the guard?
SG11
Yeah, we can do that, I did it only couple other
times. They were successful.
I'll just say they
were successful enough, the information to deem,
there was enough information received so that they
could know where.
#66:
Sure.
SG11
Okay, this is what I'm saying.
Our case information
told them more the locale is. I must have come up
and I want to ask you again.
What language did I say
they were speaking?
#66:
Arabic. A dark skinned people that speak arabic.
SG11
No, it means nothing to me. I mean, psychically at
this point, it means nothing to me.
#BR :
You say there is one person there who is speaking a
guttural language.
ACARET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
52

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
Yeah. He's trying to tell me something.
May I make
just an observation?
#66:
Certainly.
SG11
I have a feeling and I don't want to know a yes or
no, I'm just going to give, please.
Just accept as
is now and I'm going to (mumble) until, you know, if
it comes out.
I
feel that the person has certain
information in which somebody else gave these people
information and they feel this person has the
information, and he's the one that can give them.
That's all I will say.
That's an insight that I have.
#66:
It's important.
I
will tell you something that is
not important to locate him, but may put you onto the
problem more.
When he was taken, he had a suitcase
or
a briefcase with some stuff
in it that he
shouldn't have had with him.
So he was caught with
some material in his hands.
Now, his captors may be
saying to him, tell us more about this, what do you
know about this.
It was some sensitive material that
he really shouldn't have been carrying with him, so
he kind of probably feels a little bit threatened by
this material that he had, that's revealing in some
way.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
53

Approved For Release 2003/09/
SECRET6
SG11
Okay, because I couldn't make sense, you know, I can
see where part of my right side and left side brain
function, I thought maybe it was some else who had
the material and they questioned him about, you know,
all I'm saying is like an American giving the
information, that they have this and so for he is
trapped into this whole thing.
#66:
Well, I think that he may have endangered himself by
being caught with this material.
You know, he was,
he is a statesman and was on his way to the embassy
to work and had material in his possession that would
not be good to be caught by the enemy with.
So this
may be the dilemma you're picking up on.
SG11
Yeah, because I get cold chills from all of that.
#66:
Okay. I tell you that, it clears up something here
and really doesn't really pertain to what our
question is right now.
SG11
No, I realize that but was something that was
annoying to me, while going through this whole thing,
okay. I was trying to figure out what he was trying
to tell me. You know, did someone squeal on him and .
Approved For Releast
13/09/10: CA-RPP96-00788R001900630001-3
54

Approved For Release 100. COMP ETA-RDP96-0078R001900630001-3
that's how he got caught and this is
what, the
dilemma is still there, you see the dilemma is still
there.
He trying to tell me something and he's
trying to tell me something, apparently that I must
come back here, here meaning, whatever here means, I
don't know whether physically here, but here and this
thing that there's leak or something, I'm not sure
exactly what he's trying to say.
#66:
SG11
And again he might be disoriented too.
He might be disoriented too, so you know, you would
know more of that
so you'll have to make the
evaluation on the material that's coming through.
#66:
Okay, let's try to go beyond his conscious and his
dilemma right now, down to an area where he may know
much more about his situation than he knows at a
conscious level and then if it's possible let's get
to a guard and remember that he may be blind folded.
There is reason to believe that he is blind folded.
So you like the outskirts of Lebanon (Beirut) and
he's been moved twice.
SG11
Would you take the tape recorder off the paper?
He
was caught here.
Approved For Release, 2006/0
Sono DRIERDP96-0078
FRDP96-00788R001900630001-3
55

Approved For Release 2003/03/16 : 01HDP96-00788R001900630001-3
--**
#66:
That's correct.
SG11
120.
#66:
I don't know if he can orient with that --
SG11
No, I'm just going to give you numbers, right.
The
number I gave you was 125?
#66:
That's correct.
SG11
1 2, let's look. here.
I'm trying to orient this
closely.
These here numbers used for the scale (mumble)
SG11
Yeah, but I don't know what
that means and how it
relates but I believe it does someway.
And here's 2
5.
#66:
Um, um.
The number 25?
SG11
25.
What does that mean over here.
Approved For Releas
56

Approved For Release 200 3/99 28 CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
Well we can look up, now remember you said maybe it
wasn't 125, but we could look up down here and we
have a 125 and what's it say?
SG11
Is that GH, GADOTA.
....
#66:
It says embassy of France.
SG11
of France, I'm sorry, of France.
#66:
3053.
SG11
What does 1, we have 1 means ALBONK on the center
bank.
#66:
Center bank:
SG11
Where would the center bank be?
#66:
3053.
SG11
He's trying to tell me something in the maps.
#66:
Think so?
SG11
I'm almost sure.
Approved For Release 2003 /09/10-
CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
.57

Approved For Release 500 009 19 ARDI 96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
Here's 30, where's 53?
SG11
53 is right here.
So that's close to where he was staying?
53, I think he was taken right here.
#66:
Yeah, well that's a bank here.
The 125, French
Embassy is interesting, a lot of the, I was waiting
for you to say he's speaking french to me, because an
awful lot of the people have gotten --- (end of tape
side)
SG11
Railroad (mumble)
Can I see what that would 25.
#66:
Okay, that would be 3325.
SG11
3325? (mumble) the railroad tracks.
#66:
You're saying a railroad, a warehouse. You think the
number 25 is of importance?
SG11
Is of importance. Put a line over there, is
.
something.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10
2003/09/ 5 5-75P9
GIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
58

Approved For Release Sso 10: 19 -RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
That he said he's near a railroad station, he can
hear, not hear, but he's near a railroad station.
SG11
I'm just going to deal with that.
I
want to take
every number with every combination here,
We
have the 1 and we took the 2, is slaughterhouse, the
number is 3454.
SG11
#66:
Number 2 record.
SG11
Obviously that's still the outskirts.
That's the dock area, I believe.
#66:
That's the dock area.
SG11
Could he be mistaken that he feels that he's on the
outskirts?
#66:
Well, again he disoriented and probably blind
folded. But there are other reports that he is in a,
the word used in the previous report was suburb.
SG11
Suburb, yeah that would be okay.
I just want to put
all that information, because the way I'm getting it
SPOREP

SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
is certainly making, the 1, we have the 12, we have
the 5, look at the 5.
#66:
SG11
The singular 5? That's a 3446.
46, 34, here.
#66:
The number 5.
SG11
What is 5?
Water, tower, water tower.
#66:
Maybe it's a water treatment plant. Just because
this doesn't mean (mumble), it doesn't mean it to
some other analyst along the way and it tells me 125 --
SG11
Yeah, I just want to try and see what it means.
#66:
I understand, you're trying to figure it out yourself.
SG11
I'm not trying to figure out, I trying to find out,
what in the world that means, it must mean something
to him or something that he heard, something that, he
is incoherent that's for sure, so I have to you know --
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 - JIA-FDP96-00788R001900630001-3
60

SECRET
Approved For Release-2003/09/10 . CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
Have you tried saying back to him, I hear you telling
me 125?
SG1
He seems to, he keeps repeating it, he kept repeating
to me 125.
#66:
Very insistent.
SG11
Insistent.
As if
it were a (mumble) as if he was
angry, as if he knew my presence was there and that I
wasn't, didn't feel that I was taken that seriously
or just his initiative to give 125 and to the
aspect.
Where is 3051?
I'm doing something --
SG11
Right here.
Could you tell me,
where in Lebanon, that the
SG11
two were retrieved?
#66:
It
was
in
southern part of Beirut
in a
7
residential house, in southern Beirut, that's the
only thing I know, southern Beirut, in a residence,
in southern Beirut.
SG11
Now, this man, William Buckley, was taken after the
others had been taken.
He was taken alone?
Approved For Release 2003/09/1 CA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
61

DL
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CLA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
That's correct.
SG11
..
Okay, I just want to make sure, because I don't want
to mistake my --
#66:
No, over several
months, 6, 8 months they took
several people.
William Buckley was taken on 16th of
March.
SG11
The last one.
#66:
Yes.
Yes, the latest one.
As though
they were
picking them up at random or something.
SG11
Yeah, it had to be. It's my contention, I don't know
who the other men are, but still (mumble) into my
psychic experience, psychic mind, there was some kind
of a leak.
And I just want to make that for record,
okay.
#66:
Okay.
SG11
Would you give me 3248 which is 15?
#66:
Right here.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 - 14-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
62

:
Approved For Release-2003/09
a5-2003/RETARDF
CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
So
that the reverse does not mean anything, it
doesn't go into --
#66:
It doesn't match you?
SG1
Doesn't match me with what the other --
#66:
They don't feel right.
SG11
No, they don't feel right to me.
#66:
Okay.
SG11
I
just want, usually, because you said he was
disoriented and I wanted to feel my way around.
£
21,
a longer, 21 that's it.
Apparently I'll stay with
that.
#66:
You can tell him you looked at a map and that didn't
make any sense to you, maybe he'll have some more
information.
SG11
Okay.
He's certainly doing his best to give the
information, that's for sure.
Approved For Release. 2003709/
CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3

SECRET
Approved For Release. 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
He may be limited. My suggestion is to go beyond his
conscious and then perhaps the guards.
SG11
Yeah.
From the wounds that you, that will only help
me again to get the information in contact. From the
people that were found and spoke, the message spoken
by the guards and so forth, did they speak about
someone with a guttural language or something?
#66:
No, they did not mention anything about that.
They
said they were blind folded the whole time and the
only person they remember seeing is the other guy,
the other guy that was retrieved.
SG11
And how about the language, did they realize what
language they were speaking?
#66:
In the reports that I read, there was no comment made
one way or the other about languages.
There were no
comments made about that.
SG11
It's just that
I
have to get these loose ends
together.
#66:
Sure.
.
Approved For Release 2003/09/10- CJA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
64

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 CIA-ROP96-00788R001900630001-3
=
SG11
You said, you felt that the guttural language was
Russian?
I don't know, you'll have to remember, you have to
remind me about.
You said you thought that there was russian and the
person that was speaking it was in civilian but would
be in uniform if he were in his home country.
I will leave it stand as it is.
All right, let me go
back.
There is highway
which (mumble)
going to this
outskirt, villa, or city or town.
#66:
Okay .
SG11
Okay.
And the place is almost at the end of this
highway, almost at the end, I can't see it further
whether it's destroyed or what, but it is along the
highway and you can go off the highway or what
appeared to be a highway or once was a highway,
whatever it is, and it does go to this place.
#66:
Okay, I understand.
SECRET
Approved For Release-2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
65

Approved For Release 2007189 16 (CIA RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET
SG11
You understand what that means?
#66:
Yes.
SG11
So, it does alleviate, I just said, hey, I got in
another bit of information that might lead to, when I
go to the bathroom all kinds of information, believe
me, one of the policeman said why don't you go to the
bathroom 10 times, so that's --
#66:
Okay, so what you're saying is it's not in a cluster
of many buildings, it is a residence area that's off
down a road, off the highway.
And what was
the
descriptive word you used?
SG11
The thing here, I'm going down a highway, okay, a
highway, and we're not looking into small towns going
into dirt roads and things like this, it's a highway
and then we come upon this small suburb place, this
is what I'm trying to say.
#66:
All right.
SG11
So at least gives us, and I still want to stay up in
that northern part.
Approved For Release 200$/8 9 40 CI - 1796 00788R001900630001-3
66

Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SECRET
#66:
Northern.
SG11
Yeah, like he said north something whatever.
Northeast.
Yeah, but I'll stay, but if you know more.
#66:
Well, we have many conflicting bits of information
and so we check on many angles.
SG11
Needs to be verified.
So I don't whether there's a
highway up there or (mumble) but I know that there's
a highway that leads to this place, so this is more
important than the north or whatever I said, okay.
#66:
All right.
SG11
Because that can be, remember that had came from him
and as you said, I could have gotten the wrong --
#66:
Sure, because he's disoriented.
SG11
But what I got in the bathroom, that's what I got in
the bathroom.
SECRET
1
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP 96-00788R001900630001-3
67

Approved For Release 2003/05/10 | CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
#66:
All right.
Good.
SG11
SG11
I
would have liked to go much deeper and much, and as
I
said to
more information can come as I go
along and I'd like work with that.
#66:
Okay, I want to give you an address to write to and
then my home phone number.
SG11
Okay .
I'm not getting paranoic about what I've told
you.
I don't know whether you've heard but I've been
approached by different people which I realized were
from, and this has been reported and so
forth
(mumble) and --
#66:
You want to look at that so that you're not confused.
SG11
Okay .
Oh boy .
Okay, very good, understood.
#66:
Okay.
SG11
And ah, that's I'd like to talk away from my own.
Can I reverse the charges?
#66:
Sure.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP 96-00788R001900630001-3
68

Approved For Release 1001/09/1:CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
SG11
And it's a precaution that's been taken also from
other interviews, cause I'm not sure what is
:
happening. I've said nothing but there's still that
suspicion all along. And it's amazing that I'm
giving a lecture and what has happened is that a lot
of these people approaching me
appears to be no ah .. you know what I'm saying and
they appear quite strange in different ways, but that
would raised for question, they would say ah, are you
working for the government or something to this
effect, you know, my psychic, it's not just a -- and I
say no I do not and then give them information which
is this information also work (mumble) for a career
going on so to satisfy.
And I knew of a person is
not probing because of curiosity, there is a way --
which
SG1
A
#66:
(mumble)
.
SG11
SG1A
And then he says well how come the government is not
using you, since we heard on the air, which is true
that you gave information about something that
happened
and it was verified. I said well,
no government has approached. I didn't say anything
about, you know, and that pops up in different ways,
other ways pictures are taken of me when I'm walking
Approved For Release.2003/09/10: CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
69

Approved For Release 2003/09-40 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
even (mumble), I'm coming out of a restaurant with a
girl and she noticed the person taking the pictures,
says look they're taking a picture of us.
I said,
well, I didn't want to throw any, you know, she said
no, look at that car and I go out by the car because
I had to play a part and there was a polaroid camera
in which a picture had been taken.
#66:
As a person of your notariety and is as well known as
you are and as public is obviously ging to attract
attention of the opposition, so that's one reason why
it was an opportune moment for us to get in contact
with you, because you're here on other business.
So
when they check into that they going to be confused
about the (mumble) .
SG11
Another thing I'll, you know,
told me, and
where he got the information, I don't know, but he's
warned me, (mumbles) that my life was in danger. And
coming from him he must have some sources so I'm
just --
SG11
#66:
I haven't talked to him about that.
SG11
He just made that statement. He says if you're going
to Europe or you're going abroad, if you're going to
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
70

Approved For Release 2
3/09/10 - CA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
Russia or China or any of that, he almost said, I
wouldn't do it.
I'm just
SG1
A
SG1
ŚG1
A
giving you that for the record so that --
#66:
Country travelers are briefed before hand what to do
when asked questions.
SG11
.
The big thing here, I'm just giving you that for your
own security in the work that you're doing, just
bringing you up to date to some of the things,
because I would like to continue to working with you
whenever you need me.
#66:
Okay.
SG11
I do come to Washington quite frequently, by the way,
and I'll let you know (mumble) now that we have
established contact.
#66:
Yeah, that's a good idea.
SG11
SG11
You want this tape,
#66:
Yeah, it will go off by itself.
SECRET
Approved For Release 2003/09/10 : CIA-RDP96-00788R001900630001-3
71