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OFODPT WORKING PAPER
OLUNCT
REPORT - 8 DEC 1982
SPEAKER
#1:
Regarding the report dated 8 December
1982,
this seems
to be an overview of activities that
take place within this building or institute or
whatever it is.
And it seems
to cover two
types
of
activities.
The
first,
besides
the
scientific activities, one seems
to a record
keeping facility and just some
sort
of record
keeping.
It's
not clear
from
the
first one,
what
exactly
it
is.
But
then
there
are
indications,
particularly
from
the
drawings,
drawing
#4
looks
like a projection
of a, and
also going
on the description from the text,
projection of a circuitry path traced on a, a
semi-conducting substrate or silicon, substrate
and I'll
refer to this later
and
subsequent
..
reports .
The drawing on page #5 there, at first
I
thought
it looked like a hook up
of various
leads
into
some
micro
processor
or
other
electronic
device
for
testing.
But
in
subsequent reading,
I
think may be instead some
sort of strain testing mechanism, so we may be
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talking
about
two different
activities,
one
related
to
electronic, miniaturized
electronic
chips and another one to more basic
testing of,
of the performance of a material, in
terms of
its physical properties.
SPEAKER
#1:
With
regard to what the nature of the material
might be,
it's
important
to remember
that
semi-conducting
materials
aren't
normally
elemental,
pure
elemental
materials,
for
instance,
when you talk about
silicon
being a
substrate
for
8
microelectronic
chip
and
something like that, you are talking about pure
or
silicon but whether it's considered a metal
ceramic
is
a
moot
point.
It's
actually
a
metaloid
or
semi-metalic
type of material,
all
right.
It has conducting properties, but
it
does not have many of the physical properties of
metal.
It's, for instance, very brittle.
Pure
silicon is
very,
is
very light, gray, metallic
shiny,
but
very
brittle material.
Now, when
many
times you alter
the
properties of those
materials
by
introducing
a very
low
level
impurity, a doping and you can do
that in a
variety of methods.
Some could be
thermal
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SCADCT
methods, like you could mix them together and
heat
them up or there's a whole wide variety.
You
know,
you
could
conceivably
implant
impurities within
a
material,
with
an
ionic
beam.
There's also some different ways of doing
it.
And there may be some of that going on here.
SPEAKER #1 :
This
reference to
the report of
6
Jan
1983,
there is very little that I
got out of this,
just some references to, it sounds like it could
be chemical operations taking place, but there's
really not too much that I can draw from.
This
particular report just sounds
like an institute
where, well,
as
described
in
report
both
training and research is taking place and that's
common,
in all my experience has been that those
are
common activities in a research
institute,
both
training and original research.
.
SPEAKER #1:
A11
right, with reference to the report dated 12
January 1983, the reference to data storage on
fold out sheets and the drawing of the sheets,
suggest a couple possibilities.
The drawings of
the sheets showing
connections
of
various
lines. These could be, for instance, passed to
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various decision
points to various
tests
in a
decisiontry and
kind of
mapping
out a,
an
experimental
plan and they could,
numbers
(mumble) and
could report the results
of
the
measurements
made
at those different
points.
they could be
The other possibility
is
that
schematic
representations of
pathways by
material and by
sub-atomic particles through a
some means
a measurement
was
made
as pathways
change,
perhaps
the
density
of
whatever
deflected the particle that was moving or some
sort
of
estimate
of
its
size or its
other
properties
at that point.
The last
thing
it
possibly could be, it just comes from
the fact
that
it
looks like could
be
a
crystaline
material,
with a bunch of
grain boundaries and
measurements are made at
the
junction of
grain
boundaries.
Measurements
like
that
would refer
to the purity of the material, the presence of
impurities
at
grain
boundaries,
where they
normally tend
to
gather
in a
polycrystine
material.
Those are three possibilities of what
that could represent.
SPEAKER #1 :
The second picture is, as I said
before,
looks
for all the world, like particle
tracks in a
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cloud chamber and this, going back to the test,
refers to measurements made and recorded on that
previous sheet on drawing #1. This could
go
back to what we were talking about before, about
a, beam or more
single particle, either a beam
of particles
or
single particles
fired into
a
material and the tracks
left by it
it
passes
through the material.
Now this could just be to
determine the properties of the material, that's
the target material, or it could be an effort to
doping that
material
in various, very precise
positions
within its crystaline lattice or its
structure with impurities or dopents.
SPEAKER
#1:
With regard to the report dated 18 January
1983,
there's a description
of
plastics sheets with
drawings on then.
And
the fact that
several
colors were used to make the different
tracks on
each sheet and that they were placed together.
This, to me, sounds
like a good way to construct
on a size observable by someone doing testing or
just trying to put together a conceptual model
of
it.
A
representations
of
a
stack
of
semi-conductor or electronic
sub-strates, upon
which various circuitry paths have been traced.
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You see, the impression I get from this is that
what is being constructed here is very densely
packed, microelectronic chips, rather than just
having a chips circuitry traced out on a single,
should be possible to trace out circuitry on one
layer, and then take another chip and put it on
top and then be able to bore through and you'd
wind up doing this with laser beams or something
like that, very small size.
And be able to
stack a whole bunch of these on top of each
other, so instead of just having a chip of just
two
dimensions on a substrate, you combine the
build
three dimensional,
two
and
actually
a
although very small chip and then you can, once
the magnitude increased the density of circuitry
that you could put together on the same little,
itty,
bitty
thing.
And by tracing out
the
circuit
pathways
on
these plastic sheets and
then stacking, you get a feeling, you know, for
somebody trying to design these things, how they
would all fit together, that would certainly be
helpful in trying to conceptualize how to cut
the pad on each
individual layer and how they
would be fitted together.
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BLUALT
SPEAKER
#2:
So you think
this is a, could
possibly be a
either a research and development, fabrication
facility or -- )
SPEAKER #1:
Well,
since they're
doing
all
sorts
of
comparisons here and fitting
them,
it's like
they're trying to invent
the
chip,
they're
trying to put it together.
They have an idea of
what they want
and
they're trying to make
a
prototype out of it.
SPEAKER
#2:
Okay, well now let me ask this.
Could they also
ge reverse engineering,
taking
the chip
that
they've gotten somewhere else,
and taking
it
apart, is there any indication,
so far, in what
you've read, that they're doing that?
SPEAKER
#1 :
Well, yeah, yeah, you could just as easily do it
the opposite way, particularly if you're paying
so
much
attention
looking at something here,
looking
at
each
layer, you could
be,
for
instance,
taking,
stripping
away
a
little
section, taking a look at it, tracing out what
it was, stripping away the next section, tracing
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it out, and
then
after you've done that, you
take all the tracings that you've made on these
plastic sheets.
And
now
you know what
each
layer is and
you can
then put
it back together,
see how
it
was
made
or
what
function
it
performed,
again, I'm just speaking, you know,
in general
terms, since I don't know how
all
things are
put together, but I know the basic
`concept behind that.
Yeah, it
could be, yeah,
it's
an
equal
possibility,
particularly
considering what
we saw in
the other, previously
mentioned report, in
this case, the report was
the one dated 8 December
1982,
where is a
projection of, what looked to me like a circuit
pattern on an electronic chip.
80, . . yeah
it
could be, you could be just peeling one of these
things
apart,
layer
by
layer.
I
know
conceptually
it's possible
to
put
together
devices
like that, I don't know whether they
really are or not, that certainly would be a way
of taking them apart.
1
SPEAKER #1 :
There
are
other
references
in
the
same
18
January 1983 report to spinning materials.
By
spinning, I mean creating a sample,
like a
beat
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or
a
fiberbine, by melting
in
SLINE
and
getting
something
to come
it,
off
but
it's
really not clear exactly what
this
might be.
There's reference to substances
being added,
these could be dopents, for instance, but that
fact that there's not reference here to any high
temperature possessing, makes me wonder exactly
whether this makes sense.
Whether you can add
these dopents at room
temperature under ambient
conditions, maybe you can, because one reference
is made to the fact
that the
material
seems
plastic.
Now the question is,
is
that
plastic
like you're accustom
to handling,
a
plastic
telephone, it that plastic mean
it's moldable.
I get the impression from their discussion
that
they're
talking about
something
like
a
an
organic
piece of
matter
like
a
telephone
receiver, something like that.
Now, if that
was
the case, that could
refer to,
like
we
were
talking about before, silicon.
If someone gave
you a sheet of silicon and you didn't know what
it was, you'd say "oh,
that's a, that's a piece
of plastic, because it feels like plastic, it's
light like plastic and it's got a luster that's
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common
to Ls tyle
or
something like that.
You
wouldn't know unless I told you. You could snap
it and it would snap like plastic, but it would
really be elemental silicon.
SPEAKER #2:
What is the key element you need to know that's
not in there, right now, as far as that spinning
process?
SPEAKER #1 :
Well, is it done at
room
temperature or,
for
instance
this
could
be
a way
for
making
amorphous metals, you know. Where, what happens
is, is you --
SPEAKER #2 :
Like metal glass?
SPEAKER #1 :
Yeah
metal
glasses, yeah, what happens there,
one way of making it, is by having a molten bath
of
material and having a wheel that dips into
that molten
bath
( mumble)
at
extremely
high
temperatures and having
the molten
bath
fluid
enough
80
that
wheel
just
scoops
out
the
thinnest layer of all and immediately slings it
out to the open air, on to cool chamber.
And
doing
that
it
quenches so
quickly
that
it
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maintains
its
amorphous
state
and
never
crystalizes.
That could
be what's going on
here.
And
in
that
the
case,
only
high
temperature part
is
in that bath part, but the
whole collection area, you know, you need enough
room to collect
that
stuff for it to quench,
being thrown out to the air like
that.
That
would all be done, that would all be at room
temperature.
As
matter
of fact, you don't
want hot there, all you want is to cool, so that
the stuff quenches quickly.
So that could be
what's going on, but why the material,
or how
the material is being spun would be a good thing
to know.
Is there a hot end at one end and then
is all the rest of the operation being used to
collect,
to quench whatever
material
may be
spun .
This is just a guess at what
that could
be.
SPEAKER #2:
What do you think this white pen is?
SPEAKER #1:
I don't know.
The way they describe it.
SPEAKER #2 :
How about some of the drawings in here, could we
discuss --
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SPEAKER #1 :
Yeah, there's drawings
that
make reference to
the pen.
SPEAKER #2 :
Okay, how about an electron microscope, could
that by chance be a symbolic description of an
electron microscope?
SPEAKER #1 :
Well, (delete), not the way it's being described
being used here.
Sounds as if this pen is like
a wand.
An electron microscope really is a very
large instrument.
The only way an electron beam
could
travel
is
in a
perfect vacuum or very
close to a vacuum.
So that means
usually the
column
in
which
the beam
is
propagated
is
(Mumble) not only that you use magnetic
lenses
to focus that beam, cause normally an electron
beam's pretty diffuse and has to be focussed on
an area.
This sounds like a wand.
Now the only
thing that could produce something like that, in
my mind,
would be, it could either
be, again, a
beam of
light, coherent
light or
incoherent
light, for instance, it could be a laser beam.
But the impression I get is that, that this beam
only extends a certain distance.
It
does not
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continue until
it
impinges on something,
it's
like
it
sticks
out
&
foot
or
something
like
that.
Although that's not for sure, it
would be
interesting to know whether the beam continues
until
it
impinges or
whether
it
just
has
a
certain
length.
it
only
has
a certain
length, then it
makes me think
that it's, well,
like a
plasma
Jet
chet
or
something
like that.
Although,
those are
usually
very
difficult
to
generate too.
Sounds like a little blow
torch
or butane torch or something
like that.
But, a
plasma is very difficult to generate --
SPEAKER #2 :
Could
that
be
used
in
testing
the density or
heat,
fix the hest on --?
SPEAKER
#1:
I don't know, it could be.
.
It's hard for me to,
I
really can't
figure out
what
that thing is
doing there.
It
really doesn't make any
sense
to me at all.
SPEAKER #2 :
Okay .
SPEAKER #1 :
The blueprint drawings, I think are very --
SPEAKER #2 :
(Drawing #5?
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OLURCI
SPEAKER
#1:
Yeah, drawing #5,
in
this
case,
is
titled
blueprint
area.
That
and
drawing
#6.
The
patterns there and on page #7 and the junctions
look for
all
the world to
me
like all
the
pictures I've ever seen
of
the circuit
patterns
traced on a semi-conductor wafer, silicon wafer
or something like that.
SPEAKER
#2:
What could those be used for, anything or are
they used for computers ?-
---
SPEAKER #1:
Yeah, computers, ah ... sure
You
know,
you
design the chip to do it and all the devices are
built
into
the
chip,
because
the
devices
themselves are composed of the materials
that
make up the chips.
SPEAKER
#2:
What would you need to know about those drawings
here to find out what
function that particular
drawing did, like a (knowledge) (?), an opening
and closing or relay or whatever?
SPEAKER
#1:
I
wouldn't be able to, because
I
really don't
electronics.
You need somebody who would have
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to be able to decipher that stuff.
And he would
have to know, you know, what the various
little
devices are that are on it.
SPEAKER
#2:
But
if he could
get the description, a lot of
items as I
understand, they (mumble), they mean
whoever frabricates microchips.
What each layer
that
chip does,
like you got
a
knowledge
circuit, you got logic circuit, you got a, I
don't know, but
there, it's is
a
different
circuit has differnet functions, a lot of times
it
will be ( LABELED) ( ?).
SPEAKER
#1:
Yeah, it could be.
But
I
just know what
they
look like, I can't interpret them at all.
SPEAKER #2:
What about this one?
SPEAKER #1 :
All
right, which one?
All
right, this drawing
#3, I can't make head nor tail out of it.
SPEAKER
#2:
How about #2?
SPEAKER #1 :
A11
right, #2,
this
is
supposed to
be
representation of, I believe, the materials that
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come out that spinning operation.
And it could
indicate whether the material truly came out
as
an
amorphous material or whether the stuff that
was
spun
came out with a
crystaline pattern.
Amorphous materials
will
not have any crystal
structure, but they can have grain boundaries.
They can, you know, they can freeze into little
pieces.
SPEAKER
#2:
( where they got labeled here, very tiny nodules,
surrounded crystals, would that in
fact not be
crystal, it would be amorphous?)
SPEAKER #1 :
Oh, it could be amorphous, yeah.
SPEAKER #2 :
Aren't crystals normally round?
SPEAKER #1:
Well, well, it's hard to say, it could depend on
the magnification.
Something could look round
if it
was
very low magnification
and blown up
high
enough, you could
see
that
it
had
the
cleavage
lines
and
the
characteristic
crystallographic
axis
that
indicated
crystaline material.
Like
I
said,
it's often
times a matter of magnification.
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SPEAKER #2:
What do you think
this drawing
#1 is,
in
the
white room?
SPEAKER #1:
Yeah.
SPEAKER #2 :
What do you think that is just out of curiosity?
SPEAKER
#1 :
I
don't know,
it
just
looks
like
samples
stacked up for some
sort of, for the handling.
Ah, I mean, hang on a second.
Now, well, it's
hard to say, for instance, you could stack up,
it
says
there's layers,
squares of
layers,
somewhere between metallic and plastic.
For
instance, what you could do, is when
sometimes
when you grow silicon, single crystal
silicon,
you wind up growing a large piece called a boule
or something like that.
Usually
it
grows
and
it's like a giant cucumber, just grows and
from
that, wafers are cut layer by layer.
And
then
if you further cut them up, you might mount them
in something like this for, for some
production
technique, where you need them
lined up.
But,
you know, I'm just guessing.
It's really hard
to say what that might be.
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SPEAKER #1:
A11
right the description in the report dated
January
1983,
it
goes
back
to
the
general
reference made
in
the
original
report on 8
December
1982,
to
the
second
portion
where
they're talking
about some material
with
spider
legs coming out of it.
When I first
saw
that in
the
8
December
report,
I
thought
it
was
conductor lines hooked
up
to
some
electronic
device, you know, some
microprocessor
chip or
something like that for
testing.
But then
as
you go through this description here, it sounds
an
awful
lot like they are testing some material
for
its
strength
properties.
What
it
sounds
like their doing,
is
that
they've got a whole
bunch
of
different
compositions and
they're
periodically doping
this composition,
they're.
putting in different
amounts, you know, in
a
very precise manner, 1/10 of one percent in
this
one, 2/10 of on percent in
the next one,
all
the
way
through
the
line
and
then
from
the
description of the processing unit sounds
like
that they're then firing that or heating that up
at
various temperatures.
So they got different
compositions they're testing and then all
those
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compositions at different
temperatures.
And
that sounds like they put together two of these
and
fired
it
together with this metal grid
inside, which sounds to me like some sort of
strain gage, right?
And then, but it could be,
strain
gage or
for instance, a piezoelectric
these could be
piezoelectric
devices
that
And those are just devices
they're testing.
that will transmit a current or potential based
on
physical defirmation and that's what sounds
like they're testing here. And from the number
of
items
being put
together
in
terms
of
compositions and various colors given to these
things
which
I
interpret
different
temperatures
because, sure
enough, you could
heat something up to white hot down to cherry
red .
€
Those are common terms
used in high
temperature.
It's a ball park figure of how hot
it is. That could be what is going on there.
Now, it's not clear to me how these things are
put together later.
Sure looks, when these
things are put together with the wire mesh, I'm
referring
now
to
drawing #3, it
looks like
something put together for strain
testing,
in
compression or
tension.
But how these things
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are put together, there's a first pattern there
and a second pattern. I have no idea what that
might represent, unless these little pieces are
really not test pieces but actual final shapes,
which would be put together in some sort
of
pattern.
SPEAKER #1 :
The following page, page #4, that looks, that
might be taking this same material and putting,
forming it into an irregular shape and seeing
how well
it
withstands impact, at various
points --
SPEAKER #2:
Kinetic energy type impacts, do you think?
Well, it looks to me like a kinetic energy.
SPEAKER #1 :
Yeah, it could be kinetic energy or, yeah,
sure, that could be it.
You know, that when I
see those discs put together in a network back
on page #3, it makes me think of the shapes that
are used to put together in a mixed matrix array
for armor purposes and that could be how those
things, for instance, you might decide to, just
as speculation, might decide to, besides testing
this way, this may actually be put together with
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those wires there for, to be tied together and
held
together in a, like chicken wire, upon
which
then you forged metal, molten metal, you
know, poured it
right on top and
those wires
would hold everything, all the little discs into
place until the casting was
complete.
That's a
completely different possibility.
But
it could
be, you know.
So that's what that could be, and
I really can't make any estimation about what #5
or #6 is, they're just building shapes.
SPEAKER
#1 :
Then finally the report dated 17 February 1983,
just makes references to general buildings that
really have no meaning to me. So it sounds to
me like there's two different activities going
on here.
Something that sure sounds like a very
densely packed electronic chip
manufacture or,
as you say, could be taking one of those babies
apart.
And it would be easy enough to take them
a part,
I
think.
You could ion, mill off layer
by layer very easily and then take
8
look at
what's going on there.
Those kind of techniques
should be easy for anybody whose --
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SPEAKER #2:
Does that coincide with
this
first
report
up
here where they're projecting thing up on the
wall
and storing them maybe like computer discs
or
tapes, could that be what they're doing,
like
here in this drawing #4, would
that be
like
projecting the, I mean, of course they could be
doing it for their own development too, it could
go either way.
SPEAKER
#1:
Yeah, that's right,
it
could
go
either way.
They
could
be photographing
a
device
and
projecting it up there for, then subsequent, no,
drawing on those plastics sheets, for instance,
to strip the --
SPEAKER #2 :
So
this particular process here can be either
way.
There's nothing that says it would make it
more one function than another.
SPEAKER #1 :
Right,
for instance,
this could be
quality
control
function, you know,
or
in
prototype
development
to
see whether
they're
etching
technique to make all these little circuit lines
was correct,
you know
whether
it
came
up
to
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specification, which you would be doing, for
instance, if you were making a chip, you know,
to do something else. So it could go either
way, there's no reason to indicate it be taking
a device apart or doing the work
to invent a
device, it's just not clear.
So
those are my
impressions.
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